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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterdog View Post
    In principle I can't say that I do either, but it's still just another paper cut.

    In this particular case the guy, a former LEO, legally purchased a gun (with a background check), and sent it to his uncle's FFL in Pennsylvania. Both men would have had to go through a background check for the gun to end up in the father's hands.
    But he was buying it to "sell" to his Uncle.
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  2. #102
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    I understand MD but what if a good guy with bad intentions buys for a bad guy with worse intentions. I can't honestly say if I were buying a pistol for the L'il Lady and had to identify her as the "ultimate" owner that would concern me or ruffle my feathers.

    Quote Originally Posted by monsterdog View Post
    In principle I can't say that I do either, but it's still just another paper cut.

    In this particular case the guy, a former LEO, legally purchased a gun (with a background check), and sent it to his uncle's FFL in Pennsylvania. Both men would have had to go through a background check for the gun to end up in the father's hands.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhs27275 View Post
    But he was buying it to "sell" to his Uncle.
    Yes. And I understand it's the wording on the 4473.

    It's still a victimless crime since both were legally able to buy guns and both had to pass a background check to obtain the gun.
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  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhs27275 View Post
    But he was buying it to "sell" to his Uncle.
    I agree but I think that is also fowl to take advantage of a LE/MIL discount. I would be interested to know how they will enforce such said law. Time frame maybe? Lots of these laws are in the gray zone anyway
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  6. #105
    Senior Member SeaMac's Avatar
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    And the law of THIS land is laced with technicalities in a language must of us will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by monsterdog View Post
    Yes. And I understand it's the wording on the 4473.

    It's still a victimless crime since both were legally able to buy guns and both had to pass a background check to obtain the gun.
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  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMac View Post
    I understand MD but what if a good guy with bad intentions buys for a bad guy with worse intentions. I can't honestly say if I were buying a pistol for the L'il Lady and had to identify her as the "ultimate" owner that would concern me or ruffle my feathers.
    And I totally understand. It just seems like a boneheaded decision.

    Maybe there should be a measure of "mens rae" introduced back into the legal system? All the literal interpretations and case law seems to send an awful lot of Americans to prison for essentially doing nothing.
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  8. #107
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    I think that willful intent is really at the center of this. He bought the gun and said he was buying it for himself on the form when in fact he intended to transfer it to someone else.

    I think the concerning thing for this is not so much for gun owners but everyone: it is not clear what Federal law (no one has ever been able to show me the language supporting this) says you cannot buy for someone else who is allowed to own it. Kagan basically said this is OK because the government has a significant police interest in doing this.

    But she wasn't able to show how this in fact is illegal, and I think that cuts to the heart of Scalia's dissent.

    So now the government can essentially construe something as illegal if they have a public security interest in doing so.

    What will happen next is predictable: some prosecutor will push this logic to its limits. Some poor schmuck will be convicted thereupon, lose years of his or her life while this wends its way through the courts and gets to SCOTUS, who (probably) realize (by then) that they are going to have to define a limited scope around today's ruling to stop this opportunism from running amuck.

    So two things you can conclude:
    1. This is much broader and worse than just for gun owners because of the potential precedent it generates;
    2. We have a terrible Supreme Court (but we knew this already).

  9. #108
    Senior Member monsterdog's Avatar
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    By the way, sorry for maybe sensationalizing the title of this thread a little..

  10. #109
    Senior Member SeaMac's Avatar
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    It's all about $$$$ in the end. You have to hire that well-dressed, fast talkin' and fancy car drivin' A...turney if you wanna understand what everyone is sayin' in that fancy room with all the chairs and high bench wit someone sitting dressed in a robe.
    Quote Originally Posted by monsterdog View Post
    And I totally understand. It just seems like a boneheaded decision.


    Maybe there should be a measure of "mens rae" introduced back into the legal system? All the literal interpretations and case law seems to send an awful lot of Americans to prison for essentially doing nothing.
    Last edited by SeaMac; 06-16-2014 at 08:34 PM.
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  11. #110
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    By the way, he muddied the waters here by basically lying on the form. So actually there was some conflation of issues here that helped create scope for Kagan's bs.

    If you want to change the world, the way you should handle this is:
    1. Fill out the form saying you intend to purchase it for someone else;
    2. When the FFL refuses the sale serve him with a civil summons to Federal court (don't worry, a Federal judge will quickly reassign defendant status to the Feds).
    Never lie on a Federal form. Ever. Tell the truth and then confront them legally when they abuse their authority in the face of that truth. If that had been done this might have gone the other way.
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