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Thread: I have an unusual—okay, weird—question...

  1. #11
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    The LCI is a novelty at best. It's of the utmost importance to know the status of your weapon (be it carry gun or not) at all times. That being said I can't really get down with appendix carry. Too many goodies in front of the pipe to have to worry about under duress. I carry with one in the chamber because I don't want fumble fart around cocking a slide if someone is shooting at/trying to stab/beat/burn/or otherwise damage my body.
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    "Never forget, even for an instant, that the one and only reason anybody has for taking your gun away is to make you weaker than he is, so he can do something to you that you wouldn't let him do if you were equipped to prevent it. This goes for burglars, muggers, and rapists, and even more so for policeman, bureaucrats, and politicians."


    -Aaron Zelman and L. Neil Smith, Hope, 2001


  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by KameronTKelly View Post
    I can't really get down with appendix carry. Too many goodies in front of the pipe to have to worry about under duress. I carry with one in the chamber because I don't want fumble fart around cocking a slide if someone is shooting at/trying to stab/beat/burn/or otherwise damage my body.
    I like appendix, but I always have the trigger covered when I do, but it's getting it into the holster that I worry about. That's why I'm rethinking of my decade of carrying a weapon without a safety. Click it safe, holster it, make it hot, you're good to go. I really don't see a downside other than we've all be brainwashed by Glock for thirty years. It's like we went from 1911 to Glock without thinking of an intermediate step that could avoid Glock leg.

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    On appendix carry, getting it out of the holster should concern you just as much as getting it in. More people wing themselves drawing than holstering (especially under stressful conditions.) I would ensure my manual of arms were changed so the safety is always on while holstered. Disengaging the safety on the FNS takes no time, and it's another layer of protection between a very unforgiving piece of lead and your extremely forgiving package.

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    I read somewhere that over 50% of all cops who get shot either shoot themselves (often in the leg or foot while holstering or un-holstering) or in the hand (it gets in the way), or get shot by their partner.

    My carry gun is a S&W J frame, in a pocket holster that covers the trigger guard. The 12 lbs trigger is a safety, too. I rarely carry a full-sized pistol but when I do -- in the woods, for example -- I carry it without a round in the chamber. I think the Glock has single-handedly brought the AD (or ND) to many a police department. I don't understand the desire by everyone to lighten the trigger pull on striker-fired weapons, e.g., Apex kits for M&Ps, unless these are to be range guns. I shudder to think of carrying such a gun in an IWB holster. In my erstwhile career, I have personal knowledge of four AD's, all by professionals, one resulting in a death (1 - 1911, 2 - M9, 1 - M11). Safeties are good, although they require training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalis View Post
    On appendix carry, getting it out of the holster should concern you just as much as getting it in. More people wing themselves drawing than holstering (especially under stressful conditions.)
    From what I've read, I have serious doubts about your claim. If you isolate people in shootings who draw their weapons and accidently discharge their weapons before they clear themselves, that MIGHT be true, but when you consider all 65,000 injuries from firearms each year—including holstering each day in non-stressful situation—my guess is that the opposite is true. Our information in this area is limited, however, so if you know of any studies that shed direct light on this, I'd be interested to see them. Search the internet, however, and you can find plenty of situations where people shoot themselves while holstering. It happens a lot. A safety at least cuts down on holstering accidents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepdogged View Post

    I'm interested to know people's thoughts about safeties, loaded chamber indicators, and FNS firearms in general as well.

    Thanks,
    Sheepdogged
    Except for single action only handguns, the purpose of an external safety is to compensate for lack of proper training and regular practice.

    When we train and practice we come to realize that safety rules aside, real world safety distills down to three variables: the muzzle's direction, the weapon's loaded status, and your trigger finger.

    For example, I carry loaded and chambered AIWB using a quality kydex holster. In doing so I know that the first two of the aforementioned variables increase my risk, which is why I am solely dependent on the trigger finger as my safety. If I make a mistake, there's no fail safe.

    Now I've been a serious shooter for 25 years and taken over a 1,000 hours of formal training at the top schools and routinely practice dry and live fire and compete all the time, so I have proven ability to rely on my trigger finger.

    Other shooters may not be as confident in which case I would recommend more conventional IWB or even OWB carry until that shooter's skills reach a certain level. This should be achieved without reliance on an external safety.

    Regarding the LCI, I have actually converted from using the press check to relying on the LCI because I and others have discovered over time that with enough routine press checks we can damage the cartridge in three ways: a) the primer compound separates from the primer body causing FTF; b) the bullet actually pushes into the case reducing the OAL and increasing pressure; and c) this same bullet pushing into the case can cause slight bulging of the case.

    So how do we use the LCI? Well first off like any good Manipulation technique we want to use tactile feel not our eyes, whether to maintain eyes up awareness in the day or just to be able to perform the manipulation in the dark. If flush the chamber is unloaded, if protruding the chamber is loaded.

    After removing the ammunition source (magazine) and racking the slide during the unloading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is flush. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always perform a press check since there's presumably no ammunition to damage.

    After inserting the ammunition source and racking the slide during the loading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is protruding before performing a reload with retention. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always drop the magazine and look to see if there's one less round (eyes down in daytime) or perform a press check (dark).

    Hope this gives you some thoughts to consider.
    Last edited by Bluemonday; 05-27-2015 at 02:40 PM. Reason: typos
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  8. #17
    Senior Member SeaMac's Avatar
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    FYI on the LCI,

    A Loaded Chamber Indicator that is integral with the extractor is there primarily so good guys engaging bad guys in low light / no light operations are able to determine without doubt their sidearm is loaded in a tactile fashion. For those that think an LCI is a novelty or serves no purpose should research where they'll likely discover the LCI has been a long time request of those WHO DO engage bad guys in low/no light scenarios. Having been in those situations while using a sidearm I cannot begin to tell you just how many times you will rub your finger along the side of the slide and feeling that insignificant, serving no purpose, novelty of a protruding bump such a little bump distills in its holder a tremendous amount of confidence that you ARE loaded. Also, whilst engaged in two-way endeavors you CANNOT always rely on the slide locking backing indicating you're out of ammo, another reason for the LCI. It should also be noted, ALL combat handguns currently designed have some sort of LCI mostly those that are integral to the extractor, so one must ask, are all firearms manufactures morons or are they responding to those that might ACTUALLY use a sidearm in combat?
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    Really good info bluemonday and seamac. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMac View Post
    FYI on the LCI,

    A Loaded Chamber Indicator that is integral with the extractor is there primarily so good guys engaging bad guys in low light / no light operations are able to determine without doubt their sidearm is loaded in a tactile fashion. For those that think an LCI is a novelty or serves no purpose should research where they'll likely discover the LCI has been a long time request of those WHO DO engage bad guys in low/no light scenarios.
    Don't kill the messenger, but James Yeager addresses exactly what you're saying in a video and he says you guys need to train more to make sure you know the condition of your gun, and that if on rare occasions you're not sure, he says it's better to cycle a round and let the bullet fly and that losing a round won't matter in the scheme of things. That's probably not the best idea in my opinion if you're carrying a Glock 43, for example, but for any gun with 10, 12, or more rounds that's probably true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepdogged View Post
    if on rare occasions you're not sure, he says it's better to cycle a round and let the bullet fly and that losing a round won't matter in the scheme of things. That's probably not the best idea in my opinion if you're carrying a Glock 43, for example, but for any gun with 10, 12, or more rounds that's probably true.
    Perhaps I'm being dense, but I'm totally not following what he is saying here. Why would one lose a round (and create a sound signature which might not be good in certain situations) when we have the LCI and if all else fails the press check?
    Last edited by Bluemonday; 05-27-2015 at 09:25 AM. Reason: typos

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