FS2000 Does Not Quite Meet My Expectations.

[M@D-M@X]

As some of you, I'm an avid firearm enthusiast/collector. I just recently managed to spend some range time with my recently aquired FS2K and I will have to say that my expectations were not met. There is a possibility that my expectation benchmark was set high to begin with due to the FS2K's radical and technical engineering design or maybe its also the fact that this rifle is made by a reputable manufacturer and not some sub-standard generic company.
2 different issues are the cause of my rant with this rifle:
1) This rifle has an issue with Lake City's M855, 62grain (penetrator) ammunition. There were 3 instances where a "No Fire" (dud) occurred within 120 cycled rounds or 4 magazines. The ammo can easily be the culprit of these "No Fire" issues but considering that my SIG556 cycled more than 360 of these flawlessly on the same day, leads me to believe that this FS2K is suffering from inadequate pin protrusion. I would need to look into this to find out if there is an issue with the pin itself or the trigger group but if I would need to guess, I would say the trigger group is to blame
2) This second issue been the "Trigger Pull" is no surprise and has been the center of multiple posts in this forum. The trigger pull on my FS2K is rough, heavy and even though you can distinguish the 2 stage, it is still creepy and it just doesn't make this rifle a joy to shoot for me. I've spent several hours researching, analyzing and trying to come up with ways to improve this trigger pull. After basic consideration I believe that the trigger group again, is the culprit of such a mediocre trigger pull.

There are a lot of FS2K fans out there specially in this forum so please try to understand that I'm not here to bash on this rifle. I'm just plainly portraying my un-bias opinion on my initial experience with it. I still consider myself attracted to this rifle even though I have ran into the issues described above. The rifle's bullpup configuration is one of its forte, creating a short, balanced, light and amazingly comfortable firearm (considering its radical looks). Unfortunately the same bullpup design is the demise of a favorable trigger pull as it is seen in others with this design but there seems to be more than the bullpup design causing the FS2K to have a nightmare of a trigger pull. In my opinion FN's decision on constructing the trigger group out of plastic is the cause for both of these issues which I encountered with this weapon. The "No Fire" incidents are enhanced by the fact that the plastic hammer lacks mass or kinetic energy to fully indent the harder primers of surplus ammunition. I'm pretty sure that a heavier hammer or one made out of hardened steel would not have this issue. Now as far as the trigger pull, the plastic construction of the trigger group is one of the contributors to a heavy pull. When the trigger group is pulled from the firearm you will notice that friction/resistance is non existent, the extension rods and the trigger itself literally moves freely. After close examination of the trigger group I found 7 individual locations within the trigger group where plastic rubs against each other, thus creating friction/resistance. If these parts which come into contact with each other were made out of hardened steel, polished and properly lubricated, the friction/resistance would probably be cut to at least half .

There are several ways which I tough that it would help reduce this friction between these plastic parts. I've tried to disassemble the trigger group in order to try to seal & polish these parts that come in contact with each other but there is this locking pin which I haven't found a way to remove it and it prevents the complete trigger group from being disassemble. It almost seems that FN did this intentionally to avoid illegal conversions and/or help prevent voiding of warranties. Using a ultra slick grease between these friction points would help but you would need to make sure that this compound is safe on plastics. An individual came up with a simple solution to help fight the horrible pull, by simply adding a piece of thin, polished metal between one of the 7 contact points (the hammer & hammer release to be exact). Called the Neu Trigger it claims that this simple device will reduce your pull by a couple of pounds. I don't have a personal experience with this item but I'm expecting one to arrive soon and I guess I'll reply with a write up once tested. Other means by reducing the pull which makes perfect sense at first is to remove one of the two or cut back both of the hammer release springs but this is NOT RECOMMENDED. Unlike most trigger groups the FS2K has a set of 2 springs which are actually used as a trigger return and hammer release spring. By cutting/altering these springs you will reduce the trigger return tension but you will also handicap the hammer release tension which makes the weapon UNSAFE to the point were the hammer can drop un-expectedly.

I'm not an engineer nor I have the tools to be one but I truly think that there is room for someone to create an aftermarket trigger group out of hardened steel or possibly titanium (to keep the weight down) which can replace FN's OEM trigger group.

If any of you have successfully removed the previously mentioned locking pin, please post up or PM me.

Thx.
Max

[lloydkristmas]

Max,

Not intending to insult your intelligence regarding this particular weapon, but I'm going to throw some "FS2000 history" at you that will hopefully change this situation for the better.

When the original FS2000's came out a few years back, they were using original parts from the military F2000 carbines. This included firing pins. What happened was a few guys decided to (against the advice of the manual, and the text on the side of the weapon itself) use soft-primered American made .223 hunting ammo, and the gun slam fired.

There were a couple instances of these slam fires due to soft hunting ammo primers. FN recalled all FS2000's that had been produced (5 or 600ish), retrofitted them with a new firing pin setup that they began to include in all new FS2000's from then onward.

Here is what FN did:

1) Made the firing pin heavier, this slows its energy down, less chance of slam firing.

2) Installed a captive spring around the butt end of the firing pin that cushioned it and also slowed down the energy with which it struck primers.

Here is the PROBLEM with that they did:

EITHER of those two measures would have been adequate to fix the problem while still ensuring reliable function. However, BOTH fixes implemented together actually created a whole new problem.

Light primer strikes on some harder military primers, exactly what you are dealing with right now.

Ok....here is the fix, you have two choices:

1) Remove the captive firing pin spring. It takes thirty seconds, it's not illegal, it wont void your warranty, and most importantly, it WILL NOT cause slam fires. But what it will do is fix your light strike problem once and for all. I did this after experiencing a light strike ratio of about 1 in 30 rounds. That was 4500 rounds ago and I have not since had a SINGLE light strike. Not a one.

2) You can send your gun (or just your hammer pack) in to FN, wait on them to install a heavier spring that will cause the hammer to hit harder, which will also alleviate the light strike issue. Its free, you are out nothing but your time, but I simply dont see the point when option 1 is so much easier. One or two guys have experienced the OCCASIONAL light strike even after the FN hammer spring upgrade.

****Basically, option 1 (or removal of the buffer spring) is a surefire way to rid yourself of those damn light strikes forever. You might get some FN apologists who tell you otherwise, but its a perfectly SAFE, EFFECTIVE, and FAST way to fix the problem for good. Again, I have done it, hundreds of other FS2000 owners have done it, and none have experienced issues.

I am glad you posted your honest unabashed opinion of the FS2000, but its important to me that all FS2000 owners understand just how small of a speedbump this situation is in the overall "experience". Glad to have you here, and I hope you will update us after you pick one of the above options and solve this problem for good.




***ETA: just realized that I talked all about the firing pin spring but didnt describe where it actually was. Take out your bolt assembly, and near the ass end, youll see the back of the firing pin protruding from the bolt. It will have a spring around it that cushions it and allows you to poke the pin forward and watch it pop back into place. Grab a set of needlenose pliers and pop this pin right off. If it makes a difference, you can do so without damaging the pin at all, and can even put it back on if you are so inclined.


And as for the trigger, yeah it sucks. As a bullpup, there isnt a ton that can be done about this. But, I do have some good news for you. One, it gets better with use, and two, practice will make a hell of a lot of difference. I can hit steel at 300m with iron sights while sitting on my ass, despite the crapster of a trigger.

Hope this helps Max.

Grant

[UrsusB]

On the trigger pull you may want to look into the 'neu-trigger' upgrade for that. Someone has come out with a simple addition to the plastic trigger packs for many of the current bull-pup rifles. I've read a number of reviews on them and they look like a cheap way to smooth out the trigger pull of the plastic trigger packs. I'll be trying them on my Aug, PS90 and FS2000.

I see them for sale on GB and they also have a website with info, looks like a simple spring steel 'cover/lining' for the pack with no perm changes to the pack, steel on plastic sliding action.

[MP_OHIO]

Wow, just the opposite experience for me. I snatched one of these up new for a song with all intentions of selling it and making $600 to $800. Then like a dumb ass, I took it to the range. Needless to say, I now have a new addition to my collection. It fired everything I threw at it (Wolf, fed, bear, 5.56, 223, pmc bronze.....) I had a bag of old ammo mostly steel case sitting in my cabinet for a long time, this thing just chewed it up and kept smiling. The accuracy was pretty damn good to boot, even with the soso stock scope. Yeah, the trigger was different, but definately not horrible (for me). The site was a little large at 100yds, but I need change optics anyways.

My 2cents... Take it out some more without any preconceived or biased opinions. Just go have some fun with it. It is a more of a battle rifle than a sniper rifle anyways.

[M@D-M@X]

Grant,

Thank you for that brief history of the FS2K. I'm aware that they had a re-call but I was not aware on the details of it. In fact I thought that the "Light Strikes" were the cause of the re-call to begin with, so you see I'm already benefiting from this by learning something new.

Analyzing the measures that FN took to comply with the re-call, leads me to believe that they did a half fast job or a temporary patch to comply with the immediate issue, instead of really tackling an engineering flaw. FN by far is not the first nor will be the last to make mistakes like these and throughout the history firearms manufacturers big and small have made mistakes like these repeatedly. I'm not going to think of FN any less it just frustrates me to spend a good deal of dollars on a hobby and then having to deal with issues like these.

I have no doubt that your described fixes on the "Light Strikes" wont work the only problem I have, is that with the removal of the buffer spring this rifle will be back or close to having the original problem of "Slam Firing". I'm sure that the method of reducing some coils of the buffer spring or even replacing it with a milder spring will probably alleviate the "Light Strike" issue and also prevent the "Slam Fire" issue at the same time but it would need to be played with to get just right.

I think I will give FN a call to see what options they give me regarding the "Light Strikes" and depending on their answer then I'll make a decision.

Now, the only reason I posted this original thread is because I truly believe that there is a better way to deal with the "Light Strike" issue and at the same time improve the trigger pull. I guess I'm hoping that someone with the means and resources, would come up with this solution. I do thank you for your input and at the end I might even decide on one of your fixes for the "Light Strike" issue .

On the trigger pull you may want to look into the 'neu-trigger' upgrade

As mentioned on my original post, I'm have been awaiting for a "Neu Trigger" to arrive.
Thx. UrsusB

Wow, just the opposite experience for me. Yeah, the trigger was different, but definitely not horrible (for me). My 2cents... Take it out some more without any preconceived or biased opinions. Just go have some fun with it. It is a more of a battle rifle than a sniper rifle anyways.

Thx. for your feedback mptoledo. Even though I might seem spoiled by having these high expectations I do own a couple precision rifles together with about a handful of battle rifles thus having a pretty good idea of what to expect on a rifle like the FS2K. Besides the downfalls experienced with the FS2K it is still a rifle that I enjoy owning due to its originality and design and maybe one of these days I would have it working the way it should.

I will mention again. if anyone has managed to figure out the removal of the retaining pin which holds the disconnector's pin without damaging the pin and/or disconnector, please post up or PM me.

Thx.
Max

[lloydkristmas]

Max,

I dont know much about modifying the hammer pack so I wont speak to that.

Removal of the firing pin buffer spring is safe. Since FN also made the firing pin itself heavier, as well as adding the spring, you are essentially removing one of two 'safety features' that were designed by FN to make the FS2000 'lawyer proof'.

The spring alone (or the heavier pin alone) is enough to ensure that the gun will still work safely. However FN decided to stay on the safe side and use BOTH fixes to make sure no slam fires occurred.

In short, you should be fine to remove the spring. If you call FN, they will NEVER tell you this, it would be counterintuitive to the "cover your ass" mentality that got the extra springs installed in the first place. FN will tell you to send in the hammer pack for upgrade. If you choose to do this (option 2 in my first post), more power to you, but I still wholeheartedly recommend option 1, or removal of the spring.

[tqtran]

Seeing as to where this thread could be heading...
Max:

I will sum it up for you:
1) FNH made a "safety recall" for slam firing. They made changes to the firing pin assembly and gave away free C-More RDS to anyone that did.
2) FNH snuck in a change to the trigger pack during the recall to prevent full auto conversion / "intentional" slam firing. I will not get into this...
3) You can send your FS2000 into FNH to fix it for you (but if you have a 1st gen FS2000, I would not) or you can
A - Cut down/remove the spring in your firing pin assembly
B - Buy a spare firing pin assembly and remove the spring so you can swap back if for some reason you ever needed to have an "unmodified" gun.

[M@D-M@X]

Thx. For all of your replies guys.

I've contacted Bob @ FNH-USA and waiting on his reply and I have no doubt that my "Light Strikes" issue will be fixed. My rifle is not a 1st. Gen. if anyone is wondering but the issue which I would like to fix or improve would be the trigger pull.
Yesterday I received the "Neu Trigger" which I know it will help to improve it but I also wanted to try smoothing & polishing out the contact points which I'm certain that with a good lub/grease it would bring it down.

Thx.
Max

[lloydkristmas]

Thx. For all of your replies guys.

I've contacted Bob @ FNH-USA and waiting on his reply and I have no doubt that my "Light Strikes" issue will be fixed. My rifle is not a 1st. Gen. if anyone is wondering but the issue which I would like to fix or improve would be the trigger pull.
Yesterday I received the "Neu Trigger" which I know it will help to improve it but I also wanted to try smoothing & polishing out the contact points which I'm certain that with a good lub/grease it would bring it down.

Thx.
Max

I dont own the neutrigger, so I could be wrong, but I believe that it makes the trigger pull smoother rather than lightening the weight of the actual trigger pull. I could be thinking of a different trigger mod, but I want to say that is the case with the neutrigger.....I've never had an issue with the factory trigger, but thats just me. There are ways to reduce the actual pull weight, but they involve removal of springs in the hammer pack that would also make the gun fire if dropped, so thats out of the question.

[dchang0]

I don't think it's possible to remove that steel locking pin that you're asking about. Not without drilling a hole on the other side of it to push it out.

Someone on this forum got around it by cleverly removing other pins so that he could slide, twist, and bend the polymer so that it is possible to remove one of the two small springs located in the lower back of the hammer pack. But removing these can be dangerous.

As for your observations, I agree with you. Though I really want to like the FS2000, it's nowhere near as capable as my ARs. I can hit a 10" steel plate out to 500yds easily with my 3-gun AR, a feat so far not possible for me with my FS2000 and the same 75gr match ammo.

My FS2000's trigger pull has been dramatically lightened to around 5lbs (still mushy and creepy in the take-up, but clean-breaking), and it still is only effective to around 375yds. on a 10" steel plate. Better than my original CMMG M4gery AR by about 1.5MOA but not sub-MOA like my 3-gun AR.

This past range session disappointed me so much that I'm thinking of selling the FS2000. It's too bad hi-desertdog's match barrels use a standard .223 chamber instead of Wylde. Otherwise, I'd upgrade my barrel and keep the FS2000.