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SEAL's and the 17S

8K views 23 replies 16 participants last post by  GULL 
#1 ·
Would like to report that SEAL Team 7 has received a new issue of FN SCAR 17S and are trying them out on San Clemente Island as I write with no complaints so far. They have been using the 16S for a little while now and with the exception of an initial complaint about a too short selector switch (since corrected by Magpul with a extended selector) seem happy. It is amazing that the Army and Marines still stick with what many consider the worst personal weapon (the M4 popgun) of the major advanced militaries in this world. Happily the USMC seems to be aggressively searching for an alternative.
 
#2 ·
M4 - Worst? :eek:
 
#3 ·
Alesia said:
Would like to report that SEAL Team 7 has received a new issue of FN SCAR 17S and are trying them out on San Clemente Island as I write with no complaints so far. They have been using the 16S for a little while now and with the exception of an initial complaint about a too short selector switch (since corrected by Magpul with a extended selector) seem happy. It is amazing that the Army and Marines still stick with what many consider the worst personal weapon (the M4 popgun) of the major advanced militaries in this world. Happily the USMC seems to be aggressively searching for an alternative.
I have a good friend who retired recently who was a SEAL and used the SCAR-H in A-stan. They (his unit) never used the SCAR-L for anything real. I have another good friend who is a contractor who uses an M4 in A-Stan and has folks (Army) around him using the SCAR-H. Some of them had the SCAR-L, but they took them back from them according to him.

There are still just as many folks who like the M4 as dislike them, if not more who like them. I'd be willing to make a good bet that the M4 isn't going anywhere soon for a couple of reasons.

Glad to hear some other units are getting their hands on the SCAR.
 
#4 ·
M4 the worst?

I am not giving my personal view about the M4 but merely reporting what I hear around the NSWC in Coronado. The love affair with the M4 seems to be more an Army thing than a USMC or SEAL thing. Yes, I understand the large existing logistical infrastructure of Army Ordnance is a factor in keeping the M4. Many SEAL's think that the Brits with their HK made ‘second generation’ L85A2 have the most accurate rifle but the Germans with their G36 the most durable. Opinion is that the Aussies and the Brits may transition to a variant of the HK made G36 by 2016. I understand that British and Aussie special op’s have already traded in their M16 type weapons for a Special Op’s version of the G36. Now for my opinion if we could only get rid of the 5.56x45mm for a proper cartridge that would go a long way to making a better rifle.
 
#5 ·
Re: M4 the worst?

Alesia said:
I am not giving my personal view about the M4 but merely reporting what I hear around the NSWC in Coronado. The love affair with the M4 seems to be more an Army thing than a USMC or SEAL thing. Yes, I understand the large existing logistical infrastructure of Army Ordnance is a factor in keeping the M4. Many SEAL's think that the Brits with their HK made ‘second generation’ L85A2 have the most accurate rifle but the Germans with their G36 the most durable. Opinion is that the Aussies and the Brits may transition to a variant of the HK made G36 by 2016. I understand that British and Aussie special op’s have already traded in their M16 type weapons for a Special Op’s version of the G36. Now for my opinion if we could only get rid of the 5.56x45mm for a proper cartridge that would go a long way to making a better rifle.
So, what is your personal view?

The things I hear seem to be opposite, but I'm hearing from those in Astan.
 
#6 ·
Well, I have an M4 but I also have a FN SCAR 16S and a SIG 556 but I only fire them on a range. If I had to go into battle I think I would choose the SCAR and the SIG a very close second (a little heavier) and leave the M4 at home. My boy has been a Navy SEAL officer for six years and has two deployments to Iraq and two to Af/Pak under his belt and thinks the M4 is crap but that is only his view while some of his men do like the M4. So who is to say? His view is that the M16A2 with a flat top is a much better weapon than the M4 since it has a longer barrel thus giving the round more retained energy downrange. He tells me the M4 was ok in Iraq where they mostly crashed buildings and did snatch jobs on bad guys and had Marines with heavy stuff as their QRT but in Af/Pak the ranges are often more extended and the M4 just doesn’t cut it.
Actually, he likes the way the Brit Marines lavishly use L7A2’s (FN MAG in 7.62mm) but they are so heavy along with the ammo but then again Brit Marines are usually in phenomenal physical condition like no one else other than SEAL’s!
:D
 
#7 ·
All that makes sense. I keep in touch 5 guys over there and the 5 of them like the M4, but they say there are some who don't.

I think they each have their place - the longer and shorter barrels.
 
#11 ·
wesman66 said:
M4 - Worst? :eek:
I agree. I don't think the M4 is the worst, but I do think that depending on what it's used for it is inadequate for the job. Close up and personal and city fighting such as in Iraq, the M4 is darn capable. Long distance firefights that are pretty prevalent in A-stan, not so much. I do think that the military has become hell bent on keeping what we have for some reason and come hell or highwater will not change to a new weapons' system. Maybe it all comes down to the logistics of supplying ammo. Less of a chance of receiving the wrong ammo if it is all the same, especially since we only use 3 calibers: 9mm, 5.56x45, 7.62x51mm as our primary ammo. Yes I know that snipers and other use different calibers..i get that.

Do I think that we should change the caliber for our troops in A-stan. Yes, A-stan is a desolate, mountainous area with a lot of rock and other hard structures and heavier caliber ammo would be perfect over there. If everyone in A-stan could carry the M14 or some version of, that would be I think ideal for those that go out the wire. Trust me, just because someone is in the military and is deployed to hostile location doesn't mean they leave the base or FOB. I don't care what anyone says...those people have a name in the Iraq and A-stan theaters..they are called FOBbits. Since only a small percentage actually leave the wire (convoys, patrols, etc) I believe we could easily arm those soldiers with M14's or variants, and still not have to worry about the ammo logistic nightmares that could happen.

Also the Marines in A-stan don't really use M4's. Most Marines I have seen in theater use the full size battle rifle M16A3 or M16A4 with Trijicon sites. With these maybe we should increase the actual weight of the bullet to 77gr and still be able to get the rounds in the magazine since most likely the rifles are newer and have a 1:9 rotation in the barrel.

Sorry I had to get this out. I'm working on a can of Monster and fingers just started typing what I call my $0.02. Others may feel that it is less.... :D
 
#13 ·
15ICAM said:
patriotfirst said:
most likely the rifles are newer and have a 1:9 rotation in the barrel.
I have not seen anything other than a 1/7 twist barrel on any M4/M16 other than the old M16A1s I shot over a decade ago. When did the Marines start using a 1/9 twist on their A4s? This is news to me
They havent, its still 1/7. The M14 is far from what we need, what we have are not the best, most of new and nice ones were destroyed under Clinton, plus the M14 is a cleaning nightmare, and require armory level work, plus last I checked, spare parts are somewhat of a issue, this all leads back to more SCAR17's for Astan, sure a 6.8 would be great, but the confusion would kill us there. We are using 77 grain now, its called M262, problem is, we have so much crappy M855 there now.
 
#14 ·
Do I think soldiers need a different weapon in A-stan? No.....wouldnt be needed if we got out before it bankrupts us like it did the Soviets. Way better solution for everyone.....but alas, history is not some peoples strong points.
 
#15 ·
Here's a link to a thread where operators talk about the SCAR 16/17.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=104622

It's quite interesting since it's coming directly from the users. Some of them seem to claim that the SCAR is being shoved down their throats. There's also a claim that a few of them preferred an EBR.

(Just to note, I'm not bashing the SCAR at all. I do have plans on purchasing a 17s in the future. Just thought I would share some valuable information I stumbled upon.)
 
#19 ·
Considering the source i dont know wether to call BS or not.
 
#20 ·
Exactly. Look folks, my motto is deal with reality, regardless of what it is. I'm not about to sell the SCAR I own. Look how long it took to get the AR to where it is today. FN simply needs to listen to those with vast experience, i.e. SEALS, and fix any problems. That's it.
 
#21 ·
VictorMikeLima said:
Here's a link to a thread where operators talk about the SCAR 16/17.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=104622

It's quite interesting since it's coming directly from the users. Some of them seem to claim that the SCAR is being shoved down their throats. There's also a claim that a few of them preferred an EBR.

(Just to note, I'm not bashing the SCAR at all. I do have plans on purchasing a 17s in the future. Just thought I would share some valuable information I stumbled upon.)
Soldiers are notorious for resisting change.... the "shoving down our throats" type comments have a lot to do with guys who have tons of time on the M16/M4 platform, and aren't comfortable from any siugnificant shift away from it. I work in military R&D (aviation, not small arms), and I can tell you, operators will swear up down that they hate the new stuff, and will make any excuse why it's ****. Until they get significant time on it and learn it's pros and cons. Only THEN can you get an honest assessment of the system's utility.

I, for one, wouldn't really trust the opinion of someone who thinks an M14 EBR is superior to a SCAR. The M14 is an obsolete design. Not without its uses, but from an engineering point of view, the SCAR is vastly superior.
 
#22 ·
Dobe said:
Exactly. Look folks, my motto is deal with reality, regardless of what it is. I'm not about to sell the SCAR I own. Look how long it took to get the AR to where it is today. FN simply needs to listen to those with vast experience, i.e. SEALS, and fix any problems. That's it.
See my post above. The NSWC guys at Crane have to filter out the "grousing" from the real data. OIne complaining about a problem is an interesting data point. 100 complaining about it is a trend. User feedback is only truely useful when you can spot trends.

I've seen it timae and again... users often prefer a kluged up mess they are comfortable with over a system with clear improvments they have to learn how to use.
 
#23 ·
True, thats people in general. Fear change! :cool:
 
#24 ·
There was the same feeling of not wanting to change when we first received the XM16E1.(You can tell it is swell, it's made by Matell) The one factor that helped in the transition for us was the fact that we were bending the M14's barrel on jumps. The third Marine Div. expressed a lot of angst when we were equipped with the new rifle. It did not help that we shared the same barracks area at Zukeran (we spelled it Sukeran) on Okinawa. That lead to them being equipped with a slightly different version with the infamous McNamara ammunition when they were deployed to Vietnam.
 
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