RNSP 180-grain round as go-to HD standard with FNAR?

[Bill_Rights]

Here we go again with "What bullet and loading of cartridge shoots best out of the FNAR?" type of thread. But with a difference. I am interested in short to mid-range ballistic and terminal performance for home defense (HD), neighborhood defense and "Katrina rifle" type applications. I will set the requirements/specs as:

1) Must be cheap enough so you'd gladly shoot hundreds of practice rounds over the months/years, to sight in various optics, keep in practice, etc.
2) Have decent stopping power at short range (that is, not be going so fast as to penetrate with only slight target damage)
3) Have reliably predictable bullet drop out to 150 yards (that is, be good-quality, consistent ammo)
4) Exhibit reduced over-penetration of structures, compared with FMJ (being modest and realistic here - it is a high-power rifle round, after all - there will be some over-penetration)
5) Exhibit significant ability to batter down or penetrate cover/concealment and do real mechanical damage to ... whatever needs to be broken: engine blocks, windshields, door locks, etc. (why else have a high-power rifle?)
6) The round should not be seen as an overly exotic, SWAT-grade or malicious round in a court of law, in case one ever gets dragged there after actual use in self-defense (in other words, it is not wildly "over-kill")
7) Must be factory ammunition, commonly available, not a reload/hand-load - for the same reason as #6

When considering what factory ammunition is out there, of course I am aware of the dozens, by now, of plastic-tipped bullets which have nearly perfect long-range in-flight ballistics and yet offer dramatic, even explosive terminal ballistics in a soft target. These are of interest but definitely do not meet Rqt #1 and may not meet Rqt #5. However, maybe there are some cheap ammo offerings with this type of bullet loaded. Or maybe they'll get cheaper over time as the novelty wears off. Any thoughts?

I want your opinion how best to meet this set of requirements. For now, I am looking at:

Remington Express Core-Lokt .308 Win
180 grain, "SP" (which is really round-nose soft point, RNSP)
Model: R308W2
Stock #: 27844
SKU: 0-47700-05610-4

30cal_762x39mm_FMJ_RNSP_and_308Win_RNSP_matchHP-1.jpg

The subject/candidate round is the one on the left, and is compared with an equal-weight FMJ (well, match-style tiny hollow-point, but an actual 180 gr FMJ would be about the same). Note the rather fulsome exposed lead point on the bullet. Rem sells a PSP (pointed soft point) round that is otherwise identical in every way. I might consider that one, too. Anybody have data on penetration and/or expansion of either of these in standard reference targets? I could post a close-up of dozens of these "SP" = RNSP bullet tips, and what you'd see is, yeh, they really are lumpy. This must have occurred during manufacturing, sorting or packaging, because the as-shipped cartridges are individually isolated and protected. So this is definitely not match-grade ammo. But I wonder how much actual ballistic effect these slight dings have on groupings? I think 4-6" groups inside 150 yds is adequate for the application, and I doubt these would be worse than that. This bullet type might be one of the oldest deer hunting rounds in the marketplace. However, I do not see it or similar bullets being offered in ready-to-shoot ammo by anybody else but Remington. Do you? (You can still get this type of bullet for reloading.)

I am open to recommendations of other factory ammo for this application and set of requirements. Also interested in more data and experience with this exact round. I will post groupings once I get out to a range. Also I would be interested if you would modify my list of requirements for the application? As a matter of "social work", maybe you even can refine the application or its defintition. Thanks, Bill

[Alloy Snake]

With all you have listed who knows? Sounds most like you should check into Ultramax reloads with soft points.Dont know if you can trust those big fat 180s to load correctly all the time-They didnt in mine.I like the Hornady 165s but they aint cheap.

[HK SD9 Tactical]

With all you have listed who knows? Sounds most like you should check into Ultramax reloads with soft points.Dont know if you can trust those big fat 180s to load correctly all the time-They didnt in mine.I like the Hornady 165s but they aint cheap.

Welcome to FNForum.

[StuO]

Bill,

Your requirements have me going a couple of different directions, all at the same time.

1. It may just be me, but I do not consider .308 Win cheap to shoot, regardless if one is purchasing factory ammo or making a good reload. I suppose that price per round can be a relative thing and when compared to .338 Lapua, a .308 Win round is cheap. I recently finished assembling 300 rounds for a precision rifle class and it was not cheap.

2. You want reduced over-penetration of structures, which I'll assume to be your house walls. At the same time, you want significant ability to batter down or penetrate cover/concealment. In a home defense situation, walls are pretty much your typical run of the mill cover...the family sofa is not. Cover helps to protect you from being shot, concealment prevents you from being seen....big different between the two. So you want reduced over-penetration of your structure/walls while still being able to batter down or penetrate those walls to get to the bad guy.

3. In addition to this, you want a round that will disable an engine block but not go through your house wall and kill someone on the sidewalk.

I honestly don't know what can be put together (or is out there already) that can satisfy your somewhat bi-polar requirements.

Either that or I've completely misunderstood your requirements as you've expressed them. If so, I'm sorry and am glad to discuss.

[frayluisfan]

Bill,

First of all, welcome to the forum.

As to your question, it seems like Stu has a point. I don't know if you're going to find a round for .308 that will *not* penetrate terribly in the house but *will* disable vehicles. However, within the overall specificiations you listed, I would suggest you look at the Wal-Mart variety blue-box or red-box Federal 150gr SP. It goes for around $15/box where I live, has cycled flawlessly through around 120-150 rounds, and gives groups in the neighborhood of 1-1.5". I haven't tested its performance on obstacles, but it's designed to be an affordable deer round, so I have to think it would work Ok for you for HD in a pinch. I can't think of a round that comes closer to meeting your overall requirements.

Tell us what you decide on!
frayluisfan

[Bill_Rights]

First, welcome to FN Forum, Alloy Snake. (I'd like to know what's behind your "handle", if you posted it already somewhere.)

Snake, I am a little concerned about your experience with the fat-nose 180s not loading correctly. Was that in an FNAR?

I looked up the Ultramax with soft-points, and the only one I saw listed was a 165 gr with Speer reload bullets. The cheapest I saw was a little over $18 per 20 count cartridges. I got some of the Rem RNSPs for $17.95/20 from Cheaper Than Dirt. It is amazing that Rem can make them cheaper with new components than Ultramax can make them with once-fired brass. Either way, you add about a buck/20 for shipping. It ain't cheap. I shoot the 1970s-decade mil-surp MEN or DAG German NATO 7.62x51mm/147gr Berdan primed FMJ "battle pack" ammo for plinking. It was $8.60/20, but it is getting hard to find. But my desire to use the same cartridge for practice as for defense was not for ALL practice; just enough to make sure everything works, including the weakest link ---> me!

Yeh, technically, the Speer bullet is superior in every way to the Rem core-lokt, except probably speed of expansion inside the target (which I think I want). Maybe that's why the Ultramax load with them costs more. Here's the Speer info on (what I think is) that bullet:

Speer_2034_bullet-30cal_165gr_BTSP_Spitzer-Mar2012.jpg

[Bill_Rights]

Stu & Fray,

Yes, you are correct. Some of my requirements are contradictory (though you were too respectful to say it so plainly). They cannot all be met with one .308 Win loading, so we are looking at some sort of compromise or mid-way point.

Regarding both of your first points: cheapness. I consider anything under $1 a round "cheap", for .308, even tho' that is NOT cheap compared to plinking with a .22 LR at $0.04/round. There are defense rounds for the .308 at > $2/round or even $2.50+ per round. I just want something where I can go put 20-40 rounds downrange for the price of a dinner and a movie and feel like the money was well spent. I am talking about the life of myself and my loved ones. Money is not the most important criterion. And, as I mentioned to Snake above, I have some $0.48/round "plinking" ammo, if there is any meaning to the word "plink" when we're talking a cannon like the .308 high-power .30 cal rifle.

On the technical front, the primary source of contradiction are these two requirements:

4) Exhibit reduced over-penetration of structures, compared with FMJ (being modest and realistic here - it is a high-power rifle round, after all - there will be some over-penetration)
5) Exhibit significant ability to batter down or penetrate cover/concealment and do real mechanical damage to ... whatever needs to be broken: engine blocks, windshields, door locks, etc.

At this writing, I just want to focus on one distiction - we can go to other areas later. That distiction is second hit penetration. This is closely related to first-hit bullet deformation and first-hit energy transfer. My premise is that a fat-nosed, soft-pointed, slow-moving, heavy, bumble bee of a bullet will deform very rapidly upon first hitting pretty much any substantial target, and then it will not penetrate very much upon hitting the next "target" (or backstop, background object, etc.) The second hit penetration will be reduced because 1) the bullet is now wide and flattened from deformation and 2) the bullet has dumped most of its energy in the first "target". This is true even if the bullet missed the intended first target, i.e., the BG (bad guy), and hit some drywall or vehicle body instead. As long as the missing bullet hits something other than an innocent bystander, then the situation is improved over what a light-weight, fast-moving FMJ would have done, for an example of a different bullet type.

To the point about battering down and breaking objects, the same characteristics (fat-nosed, soft-pointed, slow-moving, heavy weight, rapid deformation, efficient energy transfer to target) also work to destroy inanimate objects, IF THAT OBJECT IS THE FIRST THING THE BULLET STRIKES. In fact, I would expect less riccochet, less spalling (fragmentation/shrapnel) and less damage to objects behind the intended object-to-destroy from an RNSP than with an FMJ.

So, as evidence to support my argument about rapid deformation, here is Remington's stock photo of a Core-Lokt SP after presumably going through a few inches of gelatin, flesh or whatever. I do not know how much deformation would be expected from going through 3/8" to 1/2" of painted drywall, but some significant deformation for sure. It is not proof, but pretty convincing:

Rem Expr 308 Win 180 Gr Core-Lokt SP - Box_Label-web.jpg

[StuO]

Sounds like a trip or two to the range with a box or two of those rounds might be in order. If one could test it on a couple of thicknesses of dry wall, that would go a way in helping determine if it will perform as you expect. Perhaps a trip to the junk yard for a banged up vehicle door....just some ideas to see how it will work in the real world.

[Bill_Rights]

Stu,

Yes, at first I just want to be sure these Rem Expr RNSP cartridges feed reliably (still waiting for clarification from Snake) and check the sight-in of one or two of my scopes with this round. I don't think either of these will be a big deal.

As for bullet deformation, got any ideas how to capture the bullet? I once recovered a shot FMJ. I shot it through a 5-foot diameter roll of hay, through the diameter, not along the length of the "cylinder" roll. Through the diameter is perpendicular to the lay of the strands (huge bullet stopping friction), and the bullet just happened to drop on the ground 10 feet behind the bale. (Shooting along the length of the roll, the bullet goes another mile, since it goes along the length of the grass strands.) Anybody got a nifty bullet catcher?

Also, one misc clarification. I don't really know if any civilian-legal .30 cal bullet can crack an automotive engine block. I think I heard that it can. But it probably depends upon exactly where the bullet strikes. I have no doubt that a pointy spire-tip FMJ would be more likely to break any engine block than an RNFP bullet. It would just concentrate the energy at a smaller area, increasing the point-load. The FMJ would also penetrate the hood or fender better and retain more energy.

Anyway, whatever the performance on drywall, I am thinking some over-penetration is not a show-stopper for me. In my neighborhood, the houses are about 50 yards apart and not densely filled. So maybe you could extend my HD requirement to "farm defense" or "neighborhood defense".

[StuO]

I read an article a few months back about an FBI agent doing early balistic work. They needed to catch/retain bullets. He welded two 55 gallong drums together, set them upright with water to the top, stood them next to a two story house, and then shot straight down into the drums from a 2nd story window. While effective, kind of a lot of work for what would likely be a limited amount of tests.

Ballistics gel? Put a couple of sheets of dry wall in front of a block of gell.

OK on the big round hay bales.....having grown up on the farm, I can appreciate that.

I do not believe that AP .30 cal bullets are illegal for a non-military/non-LEO persons to own....but I could be wrong.