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Thread: Fnar 308

  1. #1
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    Fnar 308

    Hello

    I am brand new here. I was glad to find this forum. I have a new (to me) slightly used FNAR standard 20 inch. I have a question. It will shoot 2 holes touching @100 and then throw the third round an inch or so.... I have only shot the rifle three times, (total of around 50 rounds). I really like the size and length of the rifle. This is my first semi auto in .308. I am usually shooting Federal Gold Match 168's. It is probably me not being used to the gun yet. I put a harris tactical bipod on it along with an old Leupold 4.5X14X50 on it. I am learning to load the bipod also. A very good friend suggested putting the bipod on a sandbag to load it. I will try this the next time out. I also bought a rear bag from Tactical Triad to help me. I would like to shoot .5-.75 with this rifle @100, and then move to 200 and 300. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks.


  2. #2
    Senior Member SeahawkDriver-R's Avatar
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    Mine does the same thing, good luck with fixing it... I use mine for hunting, so I only need one shot
    FNP-45 Tactical FDE
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    Next FN: (Probably something "they" want to Ban)

  3. #3
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    Thanks. I think I just need more practice. I am just curious to see how other folk's groups are as well.

  4. #4
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    This was my experience, too.
    Federal GMM 168 grain ammo.
    100 yards. First shot touched the bullseye, 2nd shot touched the first.
    3rd shot 2" low, 4th shot touched the 3rd.
    5th shot even lower.

    By this time the barrel is quite warm.

    There's a fellow on ar15.com who details his methodology for shooting 10 shot groups (he considers anything less inconclusive).
    He loads 11 rounds into the mag since the first round chambered either by cycling the charging handle or dropping the bolt from hold is different than a round chambered by firing the previous round.
    He shoots the first shot, then waits until the barrel cools, then shoots the first shot of the group, lets the barrel cool, and so on.
    It may well take a half hour or more to shoot the 10 shot group.
    He has posted pictures and software analysis of sub MOA 10 shot groups.
    I hear the phrase "sub MOA group" thrown around but have never seen one shot in person from a tactical rifle (10 rounds that is) nor have I seen any pictures posted on the internet other than his.

    I am going to try my 20" stainless "match" barreled AR tomorrow with the best ammo I could buy for the AR (Hornady TAP 77 grain) using this methodology to see if I can get close to 1 MOA with 10 shots. I will wait as long as it takes between shots to let the barrel stay cool. I am interested to see if it makes a difference.

    I am curious as to the experience of others with the FNAR's supposed 1 MOA guarantee.
    When they are "proving out" the accuracy of their particular weapon, is there an upper limit to the time frame in which these shots are fired, or is the barrel given time to cool between shots?
    How many shots does a group consist of?

    As to whether a rifle can be classified as sub MOA if it cannot produce those groupings firing the shots as quickly as the target can be re-acquired (say a minute for all 10 shots), I thought about it and came up with this; in any practical situation where this kind of accuracy is required (say sniping or hunting), the important shot will likely be from a cold barrel anyway, as Seahawk pointed out.

    Joe
    Last edited by scudzuki; 05-23-2012 at 09:29 PM.

  5. #5
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    Thanks Joe. Good information. I hope to tighten things up quite a bit.

    I usually shoot 3 rounds in around 8-10 seconds and then let the barrel cool for 15 minutes. Like I said above, this is my first .308 semi auto.
    I know there is a learning curve. The recoil is a lot different than my bolt gun also, but it is nice to send rounds down range quickly.....

  6. #6
    Senior Member KIRK'S AWAY TEAM (blue shirt) StuO's Avatar
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    As for learning to load the bi-pod.....and just starting out with the rifle.....perhaps you might consider shooting off several sandbags. I've found that I can typically do better using sandbags than I can a bi-pod and rear bag. If you are trying to determine how the rifle itself is doing, taking as many unknowns out of the equation as possible will help. When you are convinced everything is working and your groups are reasonable, switch over to the bi-pod and see how it goes. If your results aren't as good (I'm betting they won't be), at least you will know it is the new configuration and not your rifle, optic, etc.

    I personally believe that the 1st shot is the most important....especially if hunting or doing some other type of shooting where the expectation is 1st round hits on the target. I took a 4 day precision rifle course this past December. In it, we also recorded our shots in our data book....with special pages for cold bore and cold-clean bore. While one can always fowl the bore with several shots after cleaning it, you can never get away from a cold bore shot. The skills test at the end of the course.....10 shots....shot from 100 to 600 yards. Each shot was from a difference distance. It was December.....by the time you set up your shooting position, took the shot, and then packed up your gear and moved to the next position, the next shot was a cold bore shot. So our skills test was all cold bore shots.

    I usually consider 5 shot groups to be sufficient to tell me if things (rifle, optic, ammo, me, etc.) are working or not. Unless the goal is to participate in an event where shooting 10 shots under time pressure is done, I don't try for 10 shot groups. I do know that FNH considers 3 shots to be sufficient for their evaluation of the rifle. They returned the target (of 3 shots) along with my FNAR after they replaced the barrel. It was 3 shots at 50 yds, but it was under 1 MOA. Here is a photo of the target I shot right after receiving my repaired rifle from FNAR. Two different loads (as you can see), same point of aim....the larger group was .94 MOA and the FGMM was .56 MOA. For that outing, all I was trying to do was repeat what the repair folks did...and I was satisfied with the results. I bested their FGGM group by .3 MOA. When the summer temps are gone, I'll once again start working on my hand loads for my FNAR.




    Below is a photo showing how my FNAR was shooting prior to the barrel being replaced. After shooting the 5 shots with the FNAR, I removed the optic/rings and mounted it on my Savage rifle, zeroed the scope, then shot the 5 shot group measuring sub .5 MOA. This is why I consider 5 shot groups to be sufficient to tell me if there is a problem. A 10 shot group for me would only verify barrel heating issues, in my opinion....and since I don't typically shoot that way, I see no need to waste the ammo.

    Stu O.

  7. #7
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    Thanks Stu O. I agree. This is what I am going to do the next time I head to the range. If I sandbag it, I should have sub MOA groups.

  8. #8
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    I get better results with a sandbag, too.
    I tried a 10 shot group today, starting with a cold barrel, waiting a few minutes between shots to keep the barrel temp below 85 degrees (measured with an IR thermometer) but once the sun got high enough that I was no longer in the shade, the barrel really didn't want to cool down. The first 2 shots touched, and the overall was 1.4 MOA (with a bipod, forgot my sandbag) but I'm sure this had to do with the shooter not the rifle today. I was happy with the results.

    My FNAR seems to be shooting better as I get more rounds through it. I'm up to around 200 now and it really impressed me today.

    As for "wasting" ammo on a 10 shot group... personally, I buy ammo to shoot it. I hardly consider it a waste.

    Joe
    Last edited by scudzuki; 05-28-2012 at 10:30 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member KIRK'S AWAY TEAM (blue shirt) StuO's Avatar
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    I probably used the term "wasting" inappropriately in my prior comment.....for I too enjoy shooting. Lately, I've been doing load development for several rifles. I don't need 10 rounds to tell me if a particular bullet/powder load is worth further investigation. With 5 shots, I can tell if the load is going to potentially yield results worth tweaking (powder weight, bullet seating depth, etc.) or forget that one and see how the next one may perform. If I always loaded 10 rounds for each powder weight during load development, I would go through my reloading supplies twice as fast with no thing to show for it. That was my frame of mind when I mentioned wasting the ammo.
    Stu O.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Whitesheep's Avatar
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    StuO, I agree on the 5 shot string providing the optimum balance between # of data points and cost/effort. Many gun writers use a 3 shot string, but I think this is too few.

    As for barrel heating, I have owned a couple of rifles that suffered from this and the only solution was to change out and upgrade the barrel or sell the gun. Given that the FNAR is essentially a hunting Browning at heart, I would expect it to handle heat pretty well as most good quality hunting rifles do. One thing I have found interesting is that the MOA guarantee is for both the heavy and light barrel versions of the FNAR. If so, why take the weight penalty of the heavy barrel? My guess is that the answer lies in the testing and the heavy barrel in real life will hold accuracy longer over a full 20 round magazine.

    Whitesheep

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