WWII Discussion

[newguy31]

If the muslim world is so bad and we must protect israel and are constantly on guard against al-queda....how come we backed al queda in america's coupe de taut, when they were fighting along side the rebels in libya? Hillary clinton even said they were going to release ghaddafi's holdings in america to them. can you say WTF? Obviously people in america believe too much of fox and msnbc because no one knew that gaddafi was up for a human right vote from the un praising ghaddafi before this all went down. Everything happening today, by the unethical reporting of the media, is shaping your minds to think how they want you to think. War is necessary.

Israel can take care of herself plain and simple. For Iran to attack Israel would have to be the biggest mistake in the history of war strategy, even more so then Hitler's blunder in russia!! Let us not forget that Russia pretty much ended ww2 by themselves. Let us also learn that russia fighting in afghanistan brought down their economy! sound familiar?

yeh, war would help our economy except we don't have the manufacturing jobs here anymore...duh!

[HK SD9 Tactical]

... Let us not forget that Russia pretty much ended ww2 by themselves. ...

How do you figure that? I was not aware that Russia had anything to do with the Japaneese surrender in WWII. And I guess you forgot about the 2,870,000 allied soldiers and civilians that directly participated in DDay? Where were the Russians on DDay? As I recall, the Irish had more troops participate in DDay than Russia did. And I also guess that the US financing of Russia through WWII had nothing to do with the Russians being able to assist with a collective fighting of the war.

Did you forget about the 413,000 military and civilian casulties of the US alone in WWII?

Did you also forget about the 223,000,000 tons of oil production in the US that went to many countries, including Russia?

Now Russia did her fair share in WWII but did not 'pretty much end the war' as you think. They did however suffer astronomical casulties like no other country did.

I submit that you need to go back and re-learn history from a non-liberalized educational facility. Where did they teach you this crap anyways?

I'm just setting the record straight newguy31. Have a nice day



As far as Isreal bombing Iran, it will happen unless Iran abandons it's nuclear program. And if you had any doubts about Iran wanting a bomb, they were offered enriched uranium for their "peaceful" reactors from the Russians and they turned them down. They Iranian did not have to mine it, enrich it, dispose of it - all they had to do was to buy it and trade it in for more when the uranium lost its punch.

[vandyatc]

Ok, i am going to take this off course, but I'm into WWII history and have an opinion on the discussion.

I don't know that I would agree with the above. If you look objectively, Russia had more to do with winning the war in Europe than we did. We would not have been successful on D-day or before if the Russians weren't breaking out in the Ukraine. Rommel knew we were coming and would have had the reserves to repel us if Hitler wouldn't have ground them into a halt by not studying the terrain, weather, and logistics of how hard it is to fight that far from home. He wanted the Ukrainian oil fields to build around, and had he gotten there things would be much different today. He placed his bet (and his troops) on beating back and delaying the Russians essentially allowing the Western Allies to be the conquerors once he knew his ultimate plan in Russia had failed irreparably.

Now, A Russian domination in Europe was avoided by our rapid advance through western Europe/Germany. Russia also offered nothing to help us with Japan either. They wouldnt even allow us to send planes from Kamchatka. But to minimize their impact is inaccurate. Without Russia we would not have succeeded as quickly (if at all) and Europe would have suffered longer and harder. I'm not saying Russia was a source of goodness, but they were very powerful...

On the OP's topic, another war (particularly with Iran) will be suicidal for us. We may prevail in some way militarily but our homeland would be bled to death on a useless fight. We aren't going to end this until we can stop them from hating us, and fighting them wont help. We have two choices: eliminate them from existence (genocide) or build a relationship the long and hard way. anything in the middle is a waste of lives, time, and money... We don't have to be friends, but we also don't have to be mortal enemies.

If it were me, I'd hand Israel their big boy pants and tell them to fight their own fight... We can't afford to anger our financier (China) or the big dog in the back yard (Russia) because religions can't share a homeland.

[17Spatriot]

Since we are talking about WWII and all-

***FLASHBACK*** JUNE 1941 - FDR LAUNCHES OIL EMBARGO AGAINST JAPAN - 6 MONTHS LATER... "SURPRISE ATTACK" ON PEARL HARBOR

This sounding familiar to anyone yet?

[newguy31]

Ok, fine then. america ended japan, but this is where you are sorely mistaken with your " america, fuck yeh" attitude. It is historical fact that hitler's army was ill prepared for the harsh russian winter and after germany's surprise attack failed in maintaining their momentum to conquer russia. Remember Hitler suffered his first loss of ww2 at stalingrad and then It was Russia's turn. Russia marched the germans all the way back to Berlin and then took it from them. Forgive me for speaking historical truth but if you want to give america "the assist" by way of economically supporting them then fine, but seriously Russia beat germany to a pulp and took berlin from hitler which is one of the main reasons why the surrender of germany was negotiated. Yes it was not all america who took the other parts of germany, but it was the "allies" america included. However, the sole capture of Berlin belonged to the russians and thus I have to give them the mvp award of ww2. Did you forget about the 20 million russian soldiers who died to bring glory to their country by conquering Germany? Yes, Russia could have beat germany but it would have took them alot longer and the allied forces did not want europe to be in the hands of russia after russia beat germany, thus why all such the good favors supporting russia. Again, Russia could have whupped Germany by themselves. Russia was even superior in their manufacturing power by turning out more tanks in a month than germany could. so yes, go ahead and give an assist to the usa. please remember that even before american forces intervened with their bombing raids and air support, germany was already in retreat mode by the hands of russia in 1942.

Instead of me typing this out I found this interesting article, The American Cause: Why Did Japan Attack Us? confirmed by other sources on the internet about historical data about japan attacking us on why they did it. Hopefully this will open up your republineo-con mind and have you seeing the truth by the end of the day. That will be very hard to do since you already view me as a liberal reader instead of a "truth searcher". However, I must say that with all the information I provided you are the one being left in the dust of historical truth. I applaud you for your rebuttal and sorry your dad died in ww2 but I had 2 great great uncles that served and I would never say that they would slap you around the house for being so ignorant of history. Go ahead and think that america ended it and that Russia "did her fair share" when history shows they did more in stopping hitler then any other nation

Russia in World War II | World War II Database

Russia In World War 2 according to this, russia didn't need any help because they were prepared.

if you would like to continue to have an intelligent conversation about this subject then please dont bring into account your own father fighting in ww2 to bring your point home. That is unethical speaking. The truth of the matter is, I handed your ass to you with historical facts. where was russia when d-day was going on? they were already driving the germans back to defeat before the americans even set foot on the western front by two years! This showing is what made the other nations know that they were losing the war already. I have much more ammo for rebuttals if you decide to stick your foot in your mouth again I think this will suffice for now though!

[HK SD9 Tactical]

Ok, i am going to take this off course, but I'm into WWII history and have an opinion on the discussion.

I don't know that I would agree with the above. If you look objectively, Russia had more to do with winning the war in Europe than we did. We would not have been successful on D-day or before if the Russians weren't breaking out in the Ukraine. Rommel knew we were coming and would have had the reserves to repel us if Hitler wouldn't have ground them into a halt by not studying the terrain, weather, and logistics of how hard it is to fight that far from home. He wanted the Ukrainian oil fields to build around, and had he gotten there things would be much different today. He placed his bet (and his troops) on beating back and delaying the Russians essentially allowing the Western Allies to be the conquerors once he knew his ultimate plan in Russia had failed irreparably.

Now, A Russian domination in Europe was avoided by our rapid advance through western Europe/Germany. Russia also offered nothing to help us with Japan either. They wouldnt even allow us to send planes from Kamchatka. But to minimize their impact is inaccurate. Without Russia we would not have succeeded as quickly (if at all) and Europe would have suffered longer and harder. I'm not saying Russia was a source of goodness, but they were very powerful...

On the OP's topic, another war (particularly with Iran) will be suicidal for us. We may prevail in some way militarily but our homeland would be bled to death on a useless fight. We aren't going to end this until we can stop them from hating us, and fighting them wont help. We have two choices: eliminate them from existence (genocide) or build a relationship the long and hard way. anything in the middle is a waste of lives, time, and money... We don't have to be friends, but we also don't have to be mortal enemies.

If it were me, I'd hand Israel their big boy pants and tell them to fight their own fight... We can't afford to anger our financier (China) or the big dog in the back yard (Russia) because religions can't share a homeland.

The US financed both Europe and Russia while fighting a major war in two theaters. The US provided Russia with $11.3 billion in aid under the Lend Lease program. The US also financed $1.6 billion to China and $34.6 billion to the UK and Free France with $31.4 going to the UK. The Lend Lease program provided billions of dollars in US materials aid under the terms "that materiel were to be used until time for their return or destruction", i.e at no cost. At the end of the war, the UK bought the war materials that were still there.

Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now without the materials provided to both Europe and Russia, the starving people there would have been throwing stones at the Axis powers because nobody would have had what they needed to get the job done and Hitler would have bombed the crap out of both the Eastern and Western fronts, for all purposes, unopposed, and the US prevented this from happening while the United States was rebuilding it's Pacific Fleet that was devastated at Pearl Harbor, and providing for Americas own means to fight and bring the hostilities to an end in two major theaters. There were many nations fighting in the Pacific Theater as well as Europe and Africa. All of the nations provided heavily for WWII including the Russians in the Battle of Stalingrad in 1942, one and a half years after the US signed the Lend Lease program. The Russians stoped Hitler at Stalingrad and was one of the decisive turning points of the war but only because Germany was tied up heavily in Europe due to US influence.

The only reason that Europe and Asia did not fall is because the US and Western Allies to include some South American countries provided a source of man power and resources in combination with the Allied Forces that the Axis Powers and Japan could not combat.

The US spent ($50.1 billion) an equivelent of $661 billion in todays dollars in WWII. Canada spent over $4.7 billion (somewhere in the mid $20 billion in todays adjusted) in supplies to the UK. Many nations fought in WWII, but the US financed the war in both major manpower and materials for the victorious Allies.

Sorry for the hijack.



Isreal will not fall without loosing it's nuclear arsenal on the middle east. And when they are sure that that is the only option left, they will act and deal with Iran militarily. Whether or not we get dragged into it is going to be determined by the needs of the politicians at the time or whether the Straight of Hormuz is mined and blockaded. And as it stands right now, the US is starting to drum up support absent of the UN to provide aid to Syria, you know, kind of like Lybia with no NATO involvement.

[rx.tx]

So much hostility in here! Intersting reads though.

[HK SD9 Tactical]

...

if you would like to continue to have an intelligent conversation about this subject then please dont bring into account your own father fighting in ww2 to bring your point home. That is unethical speaking. The truth of the matter is, I handed your ass to you with historical facts. where was russia when d-day was going on? they were already driving the germans back to defeat before the americans even set foot on the western front by two years! This showing is what made the other nations know that they were losing the war already. I have much more ammo for rebuttals if you decide to stick your foot in your mouth again I think this will suffice for now though!

For one that wants to have a frindly discussion, you are expressing tons of hostility. Your fact are in error. The reason that Russia was pushing back against Germany is because the US had been providing aid for over a year and a half and they were finally sufficient supplies to overwhelm the Germans.

The Russians were starving due to the loss of much of their agricultural lands west of Stalingrad and even with massive American food aid to avoid the starvation that deciminated Stalingrad many Russians still died. And under the lend lease program, the following were also provided to Russia.

Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs

[newguy31]

For one that wants to have a frindly discussion, you are expressing tons of hostility. Your fact are in error. The reason that Russia was pushing back against Germany is because the US had been providing aid for over a year and a half and they were finally sufficient supplies to overwhelm the Germans.

The Russians were starving due to the loss of much of their agricultural lands west of Stalingrad and even with massive American food aid to avoid the starvation that deciminated Stalingrad many Russians still died. And under the lend lease program, the following were also provided to Russia.

Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs

No, no, I was having and am still having an intelligent conversation regardless of the physical threat hypothetically thrown my way because we have different views on ww2. Russia downplayed the lend lease agreement saying it did not do much. I even agreed with you that you could give America the assist. You das-booted me when I wasn't looking. Thats not right even if you are a moderator. Did you not read the report on why the russians were fighting so fiercely against the nazis? if you haven't I provided a link for you to do so. Even on the history channel they said that russians were outgunned but when one of their comrades fell down another one would pick his gun up and continue fighting and so forth and so forth until they got them all the way back to Berlin. That is why on call of duty: world at war, you start as a russian who grabs a machine gun from his fallen comrade. I know you love america, as do I, but history and the news is severely manipulated it seems which I am exposing , or trying to. Yes, give america the assist and russia the scoring trophy and we will call it even.

[Patton250]

For one that wants to have a frindly discussion, you are expressing tons of hostility. Your fact are in error. The reason that Russia was pushing back against Germany is because the US had been providing aid for over a year and a half and they were finally sufficient supplies to overwhelm the Germans.

The Russians were starving due to the loss of much of their agricultural lands west of Stalingrad and even with massive American food aid to avoid the starvation that deciminated Stalingrad many Russians still died. And under the lend lease program, the following were also provided to Russia.

Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs

Dude he owned you. I was going to say most of this but no need now. Besides I think HK you did it better that I would have. Point is Russia had NO chance against the fruit loops oh I mean Nazis. The USA totally saved Europe from its own ignorance after already having saved it just 25 years before. Will they ever learn?