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Collapsible/Folding Front Sight?

4K views 31 replies 6 participants last post by  CharlieW 
#1 ·
My Five Seven fits my carry vest, but the front sight snags and makes drawing pretty much a joke. Are there collapsible or folding front sights available?
 
#6 ·
I do not see any advantage to having a collapsible/folding sight on the pistol. What are you going to do? Open the sight after you draw your firearm? Even if you could get one that was spring loaded to open up while drawing, what if it gets stuck/fails to open all the way?

If I am drawing my FiveseveN, I am looking to acquire the target and shoot it immediately, not fudge with a sight that I have to open first.

I just don't get what you would want one for. Maybe you can enlighten me?
 
#8 · (Edited)
Considering that most gun battles happen at very short distances, I'm not sure how much sighting even matters in the sort of instantaneous situations implictly contemplated in the negative replies. On the other hand, if we're talking about a more prolonged situation, such as in a store or a shopping mall, I'd have time to flip up a sight. We're talking about a fraction of a second here.

The carry vest that I have is an great fit for the Five Seven. Snug as a bug in a rug, but for the front sight. It seems that I'm running into purist thinking here, but that's okay, and I will give it more thought. I'm a long way from making any kind of decisions, and I am hard over on nothing. I have two other guns suitable for carrying in that vest, but I prefer the Five Seven if it's possible. I really don't want to have to wear a shoulder holster, which is probably the only practical alternative.

p.s.: To #6, I think I explained why in my opening post. I'm not thinking of this just for the hell of it.
 
#9 ·
Not trying or wanting to sound arrogant or rude but considering your initial inquiry followed by the above reply you have never been in a gun (pistol) battle. I can speak for myself and believe I can for JHS although uncertain regarding HK, we have used pistols when it mattered most and life was on the line be it ours or others, I in combat and JHS as a LEO and you received valid responses to your OP but you do what you feel suits you best. Conventional wisdom has changed over the years in doing so many good guys and gals lives have been saved. Case in point it has since been proven the old tried and true Weaver stance cannot compare to the ISO in combat or high stress scenarios in either mobility, flexibility, accuracy and follow-up shot. Similarly carrying on/in a vest or under the shoulder has since been replaced with a 3 or 9 O'clock carry -dominant hand dependent of course- either OWB/IWB or tactical/thigh carry. Things in life that change relating to combat are not done without cost, study and sacrifice prior to but again do what's best for you. :?
 
#31 ·
Considering, that tenths (or even hundredths) of a second can matter in a gunfight you don't want to have to deploy a front sight. In the same vein, that's why I never would consider an Eotech on my patrol rifle, they shut off after four hours. Every since the Aimpoint T-1 came out I've ran it and NEVER shut it off. The battery is good for five years, I replace it every New Years Day.

A properly designed holster will not be an issue with the standard FiveseveN front sight. If nothing else, Elite Ammunition offers a shorter front sight.

Oh, BTW. I shoot Chapman Modified Weaver. Why? After shooting the same stance for several decades you don't change because under stress you are going to revert to your training. (And even for an old fart, I'm pretty damn fast)
 
#11 · (Edited)
Okay, I'm arguing "my" side here, but I assure you that "your" view has definitely gotten my attention. So please take my comments in this thread to be in the spirit of discussion, where ideas need to be isolated and defined to efficiently consider them.

I'm not sure that firing at close range without sighting precisely is "blind." If you carry, or at least if I carry, I'll only do it if I really know the gun. That means a lot of practice and training, which means (at least at very close range) that you might fire without really sighting in the standard way. I don't want to take this too far. If I am, say, 25 feet away, using a pillar or grocery shelves as my shield, I think I'd definitely have the time to flip up a sight. But if I don't have a fraction of a second to flip up a sight after drawing, then chances are that the assailant is standing damn close.

But maybe not. In any case, I do appreciate the replies. They give me something to think about, which is what having a discussion is about. You tend not to really learn a lot when everyone's agreeing.

p.s., To #9, whose post I had not read when I wrote this.

- You are absolutely correct: I've never been in a gun battle. This is one reason that I'm asking about this here. If my wording conveys a stronger opinion, that's only a matter of a direct writing style + wanting to convey my thinking. I assure you, I'm listening carefully here. I have no ego investment in digging in my heels. Far, far from it.

- I have a lot to learn about carrying, and believe me, I know it. At the moment, I'm "practice carrying" the FN, but it'll be quite a while until I carry it or anything else "for real," in the sense of having made firm decisions. All I really know for sure right now is that the Five-Seven is a non-starter in my vest.

- If you can recommend a good article or two aimed at newbies, I'm all ears. I've studied the daylights out of the law of self defense and the carry regulations, but not about carrying methods or techniques. Anything you can pass along will be most appreciated. I am here to learn, honest. I'm not squeamish or afraid, but I'm careful as hell and intend to stay that way.
 
#12 ·
I'll say this, always better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. You're going about this backwards IMHO, carry laws matter not if you do not have the skill AND mindset to carry at all. You get into a gun battle at ANY distance without your front sight unless your assailant is chest bumping you -you're already dead- and you think you'll have time with your narrowed and blurry vision, now sweating hands and a heart trying to leap out of your chest to manipulate your sight, yeah go ahead bro, you do that and report back.

If you really want a spirited and insightful conversation, stop, read and let it sink in. There are stupid ideas and there's REALLY stupid ideas and they generally come from those who haven't so much as clue. Don't be clueless, learn to shoot first then decide how to carry the best advice I can give having spent years helping train LEO's DO NOT SHOULDER OR VEST CARRY EVER!!!
 
#14 · (Edited)
Well, it's not like I don't know how to shoot. I'm a carry newbie, not a shooting newbie, and am approaching the carry side of this in very deliberate fashion. I'm fine with my researching style -- quite confident, in fact, because I have decades of experience in researching complex topics. And to head something off at the pass, I am fully aware that, when it comes to guns, "research" includes and in fact is mostly the "use" of guns, as opposed to simply reading about them. Still, all research is a simultaneous equation. You go after all the angles, and reconcile them along the way. So I cannot agree with your advice not to look at subtopic A before having looked at subtopic B. Besides, I've already researched some subtopics anyway, it's not as if I'm going to forget what I've learned because I might've approached it in what you or others think is the wrong order.

That said, your view seems to be that a front sight is an absolute necessity before pulling the trigger. That differs from what I've heard elsewhere, insofar as very close battles are concerned. But I'm taking you seriously, so it is something I'll think about, and do a great deal more research on, not to mention practice and training.

And finally, I'll repeat my request for any links or sources you might have with respect to carry techniques.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Without using your front sight requires what's known as instinctive or point shooting and is generally considered an advanced skill set and yes it works I can attest to that. Acquiring this skill level requires hours upon hours of training and practice, having someone tell you about it who probably has little skill in it themselves does not alleviate the aforementioned requirements. You know, sometimes we can think too much and miss the point altogether, shooting even defensive shooting isn't all that difficult it simply requires the dedication to training and practice, practice, practice and more practice. Trust me when I say this, shooting at a static target dangling from a cable in a LGS/range is not the practice and training one needs to be proficient in SD shooting. It will teach you the fundamentals and basics only, your best bet is to seek out Force-on-Force training using Sim's and taught preferably by LEO's.

Side note: I wasn't attacking him HK, merely trying to make a point in terms he claimed to understand. I'd rather someone dislike me but learn something that could one day save their life than be a buddy who I helped carry to their grave. And, I have no day job I'm retired remember unless of course sucking leaves from my grass qualifies, and quit yelling......geez! :mrgreen:
 
#18 · (Edited)
Okay, first off, I'm not mad at anyone. People have their own styles, especially behind a keyboard where we're all anonymous. This thread is very useful to me, because it's getting me thinking more about the entire carry question.

One of the problems as I approach it is the lack of objective, empirical research. At least I haven't found it, hence my request for links. Let me give an example from the gun world: Which caliber handgun is the best for self defense? Most gunners, who are predominantly men, will commonly (not exclusively, but commonly) recommend 9mm, .380, or .38/.38+P/.357. In fact, if I don't use my Five Seven as my concealed carry gun, one other choice is to use my .357 Ruger LCR snubby revolver. Now, if I should happen to mention that I might also use my .32 Colt Police Positive revolver, I'll immediately hear disparaging remarks about that pea shooter, and if I muse about a .22 caliber gun, soon enough I'll hear remarks about my manhood. It will do relatively little good for me to reply that shot placement matters more than caliber, even though there is actually good research showing that, all things considered. a .22 magnum may well be the best choice -- or that at least it deserves serious consideration, because the lack of recoil makes it more accurate.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

One rejoinder will be: "Most gun battles happen at 10 feet or less, so you really don't need to worry too much about recoil and its effect on accuracy, so pick a bigger caliber in case the assailant is wearing a lot of clothing." That's a good argument to me, but at least along the way we can point to actual research on the handgun caliber question. I don't know of any rigorous, neutral research on concealed carry issues: Which holster and carry style, or the dynamics of gun battles. At what distance? How long did the concealed carrier have to draw? Plenty of questions, not many real answers. So it's left to our imaginations and opinions.

This leads me to ask myself: Okay, so what's your reason to carry concealed to begin with? In what situations would you be most likely to need to use your gun? Research would help, but it's lacking.

As for training and practice, at the moment I live in a big city. It's a 50-mile round trip to the nearest range, through heavy traffic. But by next summer, I'll be living on 40 acres in the country. I will be shooting every day, and I have shooter friends there, one of whom is an experienced NRA-certified instructor and trainer. So these questions will get addressed over time. My style is to ask people who know more than I do, and then listen; to read a lot, with the proviso that some stuff you read is full of it; and to practice as much as possible. The reason I came here is because it's an FN forum, and if anyone would know about a collapsible front sight for a Five Seven, this would seem like a great place to start.

It could well be that, in the end, my carry gun will be either the LCR or the Colt, or that I won't carry concealed at all. Time will tell.
 
#19 ·
No empirical evidence? Try the FBI!

As for what really is the best SD pistol to carry? Carry what the Tier 1 Pro's carry 9mm (NSW G19, NYPD/ESU G19 etc) and newly adopted by the FBI, 9mm. No other caliber weapons system (pistol) has had more research conducted be the Google'r, there are opinions and then there's fact, with today's ammunition not many calibers come close to the effectiveness and follow-up shot capability as the 9mm. Look at your EDC choice from a "system" perspective and get over the fact that the Nazi's developed the 9mm Luger. 9mm is less expensive, it's less abusive on your platform, it offers an incredibly quick and accurate follow-up shot and so on. As for NRA Certified Instructors, I won't knock them but have shot next to many and well they......suck at actually shooting for the most part unless they're LE/NRA instructors, the training I was referring to is NOT taught by the NRA it is however the best for dollar training you can get, getting shot is an eye-opener, better it be a simulation than real-life, I've been shot three times it's no picnic. From my gut sense is, you know how to research you're simply being steered in the wrong direction from those actually have your ear. Are any of your friends LEO's or former LEO's especially tactical LE, are any of your friends former military preferably SpecOps? The most you can learn is from those who have been there, not those who have not, life is a b!tch but a damn fine teacher sometimes...

Okay, first off, I'm not mad at anyone. People have their own styles, especially behind a keyboard where we're all anonymous. This thread is very useful to me, because it's getting me thinking more about the entire carry question.

One of the problems as I approach it is the lack of objective, empirical research. At least I haven't found it, hence my request for links. Let me give an example from the gun world: Which caliber handgun is the best for self defense? Most gunners, who are predominantly men, will recommend 9mm, .380, or .38/.38+P/.357. In fact, if I don't use my Five Seven as my concealed carry gun, one other choice is to use my .357 Ruger LCR snubby revolver. Now, if I should happen to mention that I might also use my .32 Colt Police Positive revolver, I'll immediately hear disparaging remarks about that pea shooter, and if I muse about a .22 caliber gun, soon enough I'll hear remarks about my manhood. It will do relatively little good for me to reply that shot placement matters more than caliber, even though there is actually good research showing that, all things considered. a .22 magnum may well be the best choice -- or that at least it deserves serious consideration, because the lack of recoil makes it more accurate.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

One rejoinder will be: "Most gun battles happen at 10 feet or less, so you really don't need to worry too much about recoil and its effect on accuracy, so pick a bigger caliber in case the assailant is wearing a lot of clothing." That's a good argument to me, but at least along the way we can point to actual research on the handgun caliber question. I don't know of any rigorous, neutral research on concealed carry issues: Which holster and carry style, or the dynamics of gun battles. At what distance? How long did the concealed carrier have to draw? Plenty of questions, not many real answers. So it's left to our imaginations and opinions.

This leads me to ask myself: Okay, so what's your reason to carry concealed to begin with? In what situations would you be most likely to need to use your gun? Research would help, but it's lacking.

As for training and practice, at the moment I live in a big city. It's a 50-mile round trip to the nearest range, through heavy traffic. But by next summer, I'll be living on 40 acres in the country. I will be shooting every day, and I have shooter friends there, one of whom is an experienced NRA-certified instructor and trainer. So these questions will get addressed over time. My style is to ask people who know more than I do, and then listen; to read a lot, with the proviso that some stuff you read is full of it; and to practice as much as possible. It could well be that, in the end, my carry gun will be either the LCR or the Colt, or that I won't carry concealed at all. Time will tell.
 
#20 · (Edited)
So the Nazis developed the 9mm Luger. Who cares? They also developed the Autobahn, and by extension, the Interstates.

As for the rest, no one is steering me anywhere. I'm the captain of my own ship. By the way, my NRA instructor friend agrees with you about IWB/OWB carry. As for former military instructors, well, I had a lesson from one of those guys. It was very basic and quite useful, but the guy turns out to be a paranoid whackjob right out of central casting. So I don't think I'll be returning. I really don't want to get a knock on the door from the Men in Black because they got hold of his client list.

I'm pretty sure that, when it comes to the carry gun, it'll be the Five Seven, the LCR, or the Colt. Nothing whatsoever against a Glock or other 9mm, but holy cow, I already have nine different calibers in the ammo dump if you count the 12ga shells. (And that's not counting the sub-variants. I can barely keep track of what I've got.) I was hoping the Five Seven would be my carry gun, but it's pretty big.

In any case, I've got plenty of time to think about it, and lots to think about.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I only mentioned Glock because it was chosen by NSW, FBI and NYPD/ESU there are many viable alternatives, I like Glock, FNH and Sig Sauer but can safely say my next will be a CZ. The reason I referred to the Nazi's is due to the fact many dyed-in-the-wool Colt .45 ACP 1911 aficionados cannot let go their crusty I mean trusty 1911 because the "9mm" was the enemy's gun -you'd be surprised how many times I've heard that. I used to compete with a thoroughly tricked out Combat Commander but that was for fun not SD. The smallest pistol with the highest magazine capacity you can comfortably and more importantly accurately shoot is the one you try to conceal then if successful EDC, no matter how many pistols you own. The 5.7 is a good pistol but a niche platform IMO, some will argue but that's my opinion, never fired one, have no interest in doing so either. It is a big pistol though and not easily concealed unless you're a big boy. If you've got 40 acres in your future you can easily setup a tactical range for practice but still at least once try Force-on-Force it will teach you more short of an actual gunfight. For ammo, me, I'm anxiously awaiting the new GDHP 2 to get my hands on, for decades I carried nothing but GDHP now HST. Good luck, time is good and on your side, report back what you decide and remember better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 any day!!! :?

So the Nazis developed the 9mm Luger. Who cares? They also developed the Autobahn, and by extension, the Interstates.

As for the rest, no one is steering me anywhere. I'm the captain of my own ship. By the way, my NRA instructor friend agrees with you about IWB/OWB carry. As for former military instructors, well, I had a lesson from one of those guys. It was very basic and quite useful, but the guy turns out to be a paranoid whackjob right out of central casting. So I don't think I'll be returning. I really don't want to get a knock on the door from the Men in Black because they got hold of his client list.

I'm pretty sure that, when it comes to the carry gun, it'll be the Five Seven, the LCR, or the Colt. Nothing whatsoever against a Glock or other 9mm, but holy cow, I already have nine different calibers in the ammo dump if you count the 12ga shells. I was hoping the Five Seven would be my carry gun, but IWB/OWB with that thing is a non-starter. It's too big. Same for the Colt, which has a 4" barrel and is almost as big as the FN.

In any case, I've got plenty of time to think about it.
 
#23 · (Edited)
I never said I didn't like it, yes I haven't shot one and have no interest in doing so it does not fit my philosophy of use for a pistol. I know for fact it is extremely accurate, holds 20 rds with ridiculously low felt/perceived recoil and is a legend in its own right, a sexy looking pistol it is too. Not sure how my like/dislike of any weapons platform disqualifies me from my knowledge and experience in use of far too many weapons in combat as a Ranger. Anyway.... CharlieW, you have a very Merry Christmas...
 
#25 ·
How do you fold a front sight over on a hand gun, wouldn't it be the same size? Are these tall suppressor sights? Even if you did get a set of hinged front sights for a 57 the accuracy will be subjective to how well the hinge and lock up for the sight work, which will degrade over time.

I think your looking at this all wrong why not get a new vest, or holster? Another thought is going race gun on the 57
 
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#26 ·
I'm completely open minded. At the moment I'm very much in experimentation/familiarization mode with this gun. Could very well be that the folding front sight thought is a non-starter. I like my carry vest but am not married to it either. Could you do the long division on "race gun?" I searched on the term and the result says that it's a modified gun, which off the top of my head is I suppose what I was talking about? I've been looking around the site at carry solutions, and see that there are other ones. As I think it through modifying my gun to fit a specific carry vest might not be exactly the most brilliant idea that ever popped into my head.
 
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