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Read This If you Bought A "Heavy Barrel" Off Gunbroker 5-15-2012 to 7-25-2012

23K views 53 replies 17 participants last post by  bartender13 
#1 ·
Read This If you Bought A "Heavy Barrel" Off Gunbroker 5-15-2012 to 7-25-2012

Hello,

I am new here but I thought I should share some information I recently learned.
I bought an FNAR from a seller out of Missouri on July 9th off of Gunbroker.com.

The item discription read:
FNH USA FNAR FN AR 308 .308 Heavy Barrel NEW NIB

I called FNH USA to confirm the model number because the identification label was missing from the box.
FNH USA told me that my gun is a standard 20" barrel model!

Please be advised that I spoke with the manager at the sellers store and she told me that it has been over a year since she has seen a Heavy Barrel FNAR in the store.

Below is a list of completed auctions matching this item discription off of Gunbroker.com.
I suggust that if you are on the list you give FNH USA a call to confirm the model of your gun using the serial number.


UserAuction #End Date
Lyman Gun and Pawn 286793811 5/15/2012
Cozy992873297895/19/2012
epage702879552885/23/2012
ssSix72883063225/24/2012
Alkibid2885592955/26/2012
ls14jay2885868715/26/2012
harknejg2886866545/27/2012
C8H10N4O22887086445/27/2012
rick21122889923205/29/2012
matt_hew132898661556/4/2012
TEXSPORT2917882266/15/2012
dan19592921746856/18/2012
brianbaru59642924883216/20/2012
JACKSBACKM162933191016/26/2012
notonfire2934147986/26/2012
baker752935675596/27/2012
1RandomUser 294137515 7/1/2012
brady252951406487/7/2012
da_buyer 2950973047/7/2012
israel66 295473139 7/9/2012
grayling2957900107/11/2012
welditnow2964792727/15/2012
Spurrious2970345607/18/2012
Stu19932980098717/25/2012
 
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#5 ·
The seller is yet to offer me an explination as to why the identification label was missing. When I informed him of the fact that according to the records of FNH USA the gun he sent me is a standard/light barrel. He replied that FNH USA has discontinued the heavy barrel and are now only producing the standard/light barrel model because the standard/light is more accurate.
When I visited the FNH USA website I noticed that only the 20" heavy barrel and the 16" standard are advertized.

The seller is telling me that the FNH USA website is wrong, and a light barrel is more accurate than a heavy barrel.

I would think that if they were going to discontinue a model it would be the light/standard version.
From my expirence a heavier (and therefore more ridgid) barrel is always going to be more stable (and therefore more accurate).

Can anybody confirm which model has been discontinued?
 
#8 ·
Hey Israel..
Non of this makes a damn bit of difference. You NEED to communicate to the seller RIGHT NOW to either send you the rifle you paid for, return your money to you, or whatever else you're wanting done to make this right.
You gotta stop letting them control the situation by simply floating a bunch of B.S. your way.
The Bottom Line is you bought the rifle from them because they listed it as a HEAVY BARREL FNAR. For arguement's sake, say FN stopped making the H-Bar.. So what? That's NOT what you bought and PAID FOR, and the situation needs to be rectified ASAP. Thankfully FN still makes the H-Bar, so dude owes it to you. You need to give him a VERY SHORT amount of time to rectifiy it, then you need to get GB and/or your credit card company involved(hopefully you used a CC, as they're the safest way to pay for stuff over the internet-Amex in particular). I don't know when you bought the thing, but usually you only have TWO billing cycles to dispute a charge in, i.e. 60 DAYS. If you're close to that now, DISPUTE THE CHARGE NOW. Hopefully you saved the auction page, or GB can pull it back up for you.
The ONLY thing you and the seller need to talk about at this point is when you are either gonna get your money back, or the CORRECT rifle.
FWIW, FN has discounted the standard barrel $400 or so. I just bought one BNIB for $924, with the plan of simply replacing the thing with an H-Bar when I need to.
FN DIDN'T discount the H-Bar version(s), so if you paid $1400+/-, you need to get especially pissed off. Either way, the item you bought was mis-represented, and in fact, there's a name for what the seller did.
It's called 'Bait And Switch'.
Get it handled before you run out of time and/or resources.
 
#9 ·
Now that you mention it, I think you may be spot on with the Bait and switch call.
I noticed the first red flag when I arrived at my transfer dealer’s shop and opened up the package from UPS. The box inside the UPS box looked like a factory box but the identification label was missing and it appeared as though the box had been opened and resealed. Also, I did not think much of it at that moment but there was a UPS shipping label on the factory box showing that the gun had been shipped from a man I will just refer to as Mr. Baker (to protect his identity) from Oregon to the sellers shop in Missouri.
The next red flag came when I got home and I pulled the FN case out of the factory box and a photo copy of Mr. Baker’s driver’s license fell out onto the floor. I picked it up and noticed a note saying “thanks for the help”.
At this point I was thinking well maybe a dealer to dealer sale took place between Mr. Baker and the seller. I did a search on the BATF website (since I had all of Mr. Baker’s personal information!) to see if he was a licensed dealer. I did not find any record of a licensed dealer with his name in Oregon.
At this point I was suspicious.
I read the owner’s manual and decided I would perform the initial cleaning in order to get more familiar with the construction of the firearm. When I disassembled the gas system I was surprised to find the gas piston well blackened with powder residue. My examination of the gun also revealed brass marks on the bottom of the carrier and the bolt face.
Now I was concerned that I had been sent a used gun by mistake.
I contacted the seller several times by email with an explanation of what I had discovered I included photographs of the gun parts and a scanned image of Mr. Baker’s license. When he finally responded to me he said “that gun was sent to another customer by mistake and he returned it the same day” and “the fouling is from the proof testing”.
I thought the amount of fouling to be excessive for a proof test so I called FNH USA. They told me that they fire 1-3 proof rounds through the guns and the fouling is normal. So, that laid to rest my concern about the fouling (for the moment). Then, while I had them on the phone I mentioned that there was no identification label and I asked them to run the serial number for me. I was very surprised and upset when they told me that my gun was a 20” standard w/20rd. mag!
Again I contacted the seller and again no response to my email. So, I ended up calling the shop and talking to the manager. This is when she told me she had not had a 20” Heavy Barrel FNAR come through the store in “like a year”. She told me that the listing must have been created by accident by one of the employees. (I knew from looking at their listings on Gunbroker that they were using the listing with HEAVY BARREL in the title currently and for as far back as I could search completed auctions). At this point I had absolutely no trust in this seller.
She acknowledged that the gun was not the correct model. I asked when I could expect for them to have one in stock. In the background I heard the owner say “Never!”
She said I could send the gun back for a full refund (and I was going to go with this option) but, then she sent me a message saying “when the gun is received in new condition you will receive a full refund”. Maybe I am too cautious but after I saw that I thought NO WAY. I could just see them getting it back and nit picking at it and reducing my full refund down to 70 or 80%. Plus I don’t even really consider that I received the gun in new condition. It was sent to another customer, removed from the box, the identification label was gone, it had powder residue build up, it was sent back to the seller, and then to me. I don’t think that anybody would still consider something to be factory new after it had been unpackaged by another customer and then returned missing some original documentation.
I played nice with them the whole time and I got them to send me 3 extra 20 round mags.
When I got the mags I left them a “D” for feedback and called it good.
When I saw that they left me a “D” also I was mildly annoyed but, chalked it up to childishness.
Then this week I received an email demanding that I change the feedback to positive. I refused and they got nasty with me using foul language and personal insults.
I would be interested to hear from others on the list (especially baker75) to hear their stories.
I will be filing a complaint with the BBB in Missouri.



 
#10 ·
Do their current listings still list "heavy barrel"? My feeling is that, if it was an honest mistake they should have taken the gun back and refunded you no questions asked, shot or not. After all they mis-listed the gun. Unless you were a FNAR expert there was no way for you to know off the bat if it was a heavy or not without some time and research and most would have taken it for granted(probably what they were hoping).

Now the question of, are you happy with the gun you got at the price you got it? If so, you got a good deal with the gun, especially with 3 extra mags (about 160 bucks worth). If you are dead set on a Heavy, then fight on. If not, I think your course of action will be sufficient, and hopefully change their ways.

BigRat
 
#11 ·
I just got an email from FNH USA confirming what I posted earlier.

The standard and heavy barrels have the same diameter at the muzzle, and where the standard barrel maintains that diameter to within 6" of the breech, the heavy barrel is tapered along its entire length.

This makes sense, since the standard barrel has been discontinued, that I got a standard barreled model at a discount.

I hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction.

Joe
 
#12 ·
I notified them of the fact that I had been sent the incorrect model on 7/23/2012. They continued to list the 1 day type auctions using that incorrect item discription for 2 more days. They sold the last misrepresented gun on 7/25. Listings since then have ommited "Heavy Barrel" from the item discription.
By the time I had the gun in my hands I had $1037.70 into it (gun+shipping+transfer fee), so if I subtract the $160 for the mags, I got a standard profile 20" FNAR for $877.70.
I wanted a Heavy Barrel model so naturally I was (and still am) disappointed but, I was willing to let it go untill they got ugly with me about the feedback.
Also, I want to know the truth and I want any of the others to know about this (if they don't already).
 
#13 · (Edited)
I believe that my FNAR came from the same store in MO that you purchased yours from. I did not order it through gunbroker, but found the listing on their website, and called them to order it over the phone. I also was shipped a light barrel model instead of the heavy barrel. I noticed it when I went and picked it up from my FFL on July 26th. The only difference that I can see between the two as far as performance is concerned is the heavy barrel effective range is listed at 1100 yards, and the light barrel is listed at 800 yards. I plan on using mine for deer (and possibly bear) hunting here in New Hampshire, so I do not need more than 250-300 yards at most. The extra pound in weight saved may make it easier on those longer hikes into the woods. Even if I was going to get into shooting competitions here in NH, the longest range that I have found is 600 yards, so either model will work for me. Anything beyond 300-400 yards is probably getting into bolt action range anyways, so the 800 vs. 1100 yards is not a big deal to me. I will sacrifice the additional 300 yards for the $400 in savings. I don't agree with the fact that they were baiting and switching so many customers, and I am glad that someone brought it to their attention. I hope that it was accidental as the different versions are difficult to tell apart, but gunbroker needs to send them a warning in some way.
 
#14 ·
kmiles,

Thank you for sharing your story.
One question that my help to determine if these switches were deliberate is:

Was the identification label from FNH USA on the box and legible?

These guns are difficult to tell apart for people like myself who have only seen pictures and handled 1 of the two models.

However, a dealer should have no problem making the identification (especially since they are receiving them from FNH USA with identification labels).

Also, did they compensate you for delivering the incorrect product?
 
#15 ·
There was a label on the inner carboard box (the FN box was in a larger outer box), that said that it was a FNAR, but I do not remember the details of if it said standard vs. heavy vs. light barrel. I remember that it gave an item/model number, but without having them memorized from the FN catalog, it did not mean anything to me. I did not notice anything like missing labels, or copies of other ID's. My FFL offered to ship it back to them without accepting the order if it was not what I wanted, but I had done some reading on the different models (and held a heavy barrel at a local gun dealer), so I decided that the $400 savings was worth more than getting a different barrel than I thought I was getting. I had been looking for several months for a heavy barrel in the $1000 range, so I knew that they were not out there (at least very often). That is why I was surprised when I saw the website that had them listed that way.
 
#17 · (Edited)
UPDATE:

On 8/17 I sent a letter to the person whose Oregon driver's license I found a photocopyof in the box with my gun. He received it on 8/20 and promptly called me to discuss the situation. He informed me that he is the Gunbroker.com user with the username baker75 that won auction #
293567559 on 6/27/2012.
This confirms what I had suspected.
They sent the gun to him as a heavy barrel. He knew immediately that it was nota heavy barrel model and he sent it back to the seller and got a full refund.
They then knowingly relisted it with the same falsified item description on7/9.
I won that auction and they sent it to me.
They tried to pass it off as a mistake only they forgot to remove the evidence from the box.
Mr. Baker was not at all pleased to learn that they were so careless with his personal information.
At this point I have them caught. There can be no doubt that they were pulling a scam.
Shame on them for trying to take advantage of their customers using this"Bait and Switch" tactic!

 
#18 ·
I purchased my FNAR last month on GunBroker, from STG Firearms in Prescott Arizona.

FNH FNAR .308 20" Fluted FN AR 7.62x51 No CC Fee : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

I was very pleased with the experience, although buying on GunBroker can be problematic. My previous GunBroker purchase was a Crimson Trace laser, and it was not a good experience - a bit of deliberate false advertising. I sent them the correct info, and they continued to misrepresent the product they were selling. Sound familiar?

I'm an FNH newbie. I had a generally positive impression of FNH, but always considered them a bit expensive for my tastes. I figure they sell a lot to military markets, and that pricing was influencing their commercial marketing efforts. I basically viewed FNH as having good quality, but probably not the best value. However, I was very favorably impressed with the value represented by the FNAR, now that the price has dropped into my ballpark. :)

I wanted to learn about the FNAR, and was surprised that there was so much confusion in the FNAR market. I'm most accustomed to Kel-Tec firearms and the KTOG forum. If some detail isn't known, someone calls the factory, often speaks with the engineer for that product, and the info is shared publicly so we all know. With the FNAR, there was a lot of confusion about what I'd consider the basics, such as the different barrel configurations. I saw references to Standard, Light and Heavy. I think there are only two barrel weights, and Standard and Light refer to the same barrel profile. I read that there is about a pound of difference between the two barrels, which sounds right, but I also read that the difference is only a few ounces. I read that the Heavy barrel is more accurate, which is typically true, but I also read that there isn't much difference in the accuracy. Then why have the extra weight? I even read that the lighter barrel is MORE accurate!

I thought the FNH website would straighten out the misinformation, but when I looked, it appeared that maybe FNH was changing their FNAR offerings and the website was in a state of flux. There wasn't much info, and it didn't clarify any of my confusion.

The best information I could find was the official FNH product catalogs, provided as PDF files on the FNH website. These offered some solid info and some historical perspective.

The 2009 catalog lists a 20" Standard FNAR at 9.0 pounds, and a 20" Heavy at 10.0 pounds.

The 2010 catalog lists a 16" Standard at 8.8 pounds, a 20" Standard at 9.0 pounds, and a 20" Heavy at 10.0 pounds.

The 2011 catalog lists a 16" Standard at 8.8 pounds, and a 20" Heavy at 10.0 pounds. It also lists a 20" Match at 9.8 pounds.

The 2012 catalog lists a 16" Standard at 8.75 pounds, and a 20" Heavy at 10.0 pounds.

All barrels are fluted. The Standard and Heavy models are always available in 10 or 20 round magazine configurations. The weights listed above are the 20 round versions. The ten round versions are .1 pound lighter. The Match version was apparently sold with a 5 round magazine and a 10 round magazine.

I didn't see any reference in any of the FNH product catalogs to a Light version of the FNAR. I assume the Standard version is the Light version. However, the FNAR I bought brand new last month had an FNH label on the end of the shipping box that said "FNAR LIGHT 20 TIROS SEMI-AUTO RIFLE". It appears that FNH is at least partially responsible for some of the confusion. FNH manufacturing is labeling the rifles as Light and Heavy, and FNH marketing is apparently using the terms Standard and Heavy. They should use consistent nomenclature throughout the company.

So, I bought a 20" Standard (Light) FNAR, brand new last month, even though that model hasn't been listed since the 2010 FNH catalog? It seems that this is the version that is most prevalent in the market right now and is frequently offered at blow-out prices by online retailers and is sold at attractive discount prices by local dealers. Paradoxically, the Heavy version that's listed in the 2011 and 2012 FNH catalogs are relatively difficult to find. If FNH is blowing out the 2010 Standard FNARs, they must have had a LOT of them in inventory!

I also found it odd that the catalogs consistently listed the FNAR, all by itself, under the category of Auto-Loading Rifles, and the other FNH auto-loaders, the PS-90, SCAR and FS-2000, are listed in the catalogs under the heading of Carbines. They're all semi-automatic rifles. Maybe there are two distinct divisions within the FNH company, and that's reflected in the catalog?
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm on that list also....not happy. It sure looks like Black Market Arms knowingly ran a fraud/scam operation. I wonder how many people it takes to get a class action suit certified. Anybody know?
 
#21 ·
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#43 · (Edited)
The BBB resource that covers the area Black Market Arms is in: Check Out a Business or Charity - St. Louis, MO for Black Market Arms in auxvasse-MO

The GunBroker Fraud claim resource (log in at gunbroker.com first): http://www.gunbroker.com/MySite/MySupport/FraudClaims.aspx
Spurrious, Thanks for posting the links (I have not figured out how to do that yet). I also have filed a complaint with the BBB and a fraud claim with Gunbroker.com. I went to the Missouri Attourney General's website and filed a complaint with them as well. They have a department dedicated to consumer protection and you can file online complaints. I also filed a complaint with the BATF. I contacted FNH USA and sent messages to their marketing and dealer sales departments.
Hopefully others from the list will find this thread and come forward as well. Dishonest businesses need to be held accountable for their actions.
 
#22 ·
Lot of BS being spread about us in this thread

This is BlackMarketArms, I am the owner of the shop in Auxvasse MO, we sell tons of FN products and firearms and there is a bunch of BS being said about us here, let me first state that we did receive in a shipment of 20 FNAR light barrel guns in place of heavy barrel ones and we did not know it until we started getting complaints about some of them, Isreal66 as well as everyone that ever received one was offered a full refund plus shipping back to us plus any transfer fees that they paid!!!!!! If he claims otherwise well that is just more BS, We try to make every customer happy and we did not know about this issue, towards the end of last year FNH offered us a special price on FNAR's for $880 and they where the heavy barrel ones, we sold about 110 of them at that time with their special price, then of course the stopped the promotion, they came back to us again and said we are offering the promotion again for $880 if you want them so we ordered 20 and got them in not knowing that there was any difference, we started selling them again off our same old listing and we sold I think 16 of them before we knew there where any problems, we called our distributor on it and where told that the heavy barrel ones where discontinued and that the light replaced them, I know that if you go on FN's website they only show standard and heavy but that is all that it has ever shown, we where told that the light was found to be more accurate and that FN was discontinuing the heavy ones for that reason! I do not know if that is true or not but none of the 3 distributors carry the heavy ones anymore all they have is the light and our price is the same, $880, we where selling them for $950-$975 as we always have, we offered a full refund as stated or $100 back in cash, or 3-20 round mags, Isreal guy said the mags would be fine with him as we also sent him a screen shot from our distributor showing him that they cost us the exact same price and have the exact same retail price and that we where loosing our ass no matter how we proceeded, we have tried this with every customer, basically we offered everyone that we made this mistake on the exact same deal where we would give full refunds or loose up to $100 trying to make each customer happy as it was an honest mistake on our part and we do not need bad feedbacks or bullshit floating around about us that is not true, we are a small growing business and would never bait and switch or pull the wool over someones eyes as it just leads to problems down the road and we have a great reputation on the web for great prices and hope to keep that up and business doing good, it just sucks for everyone involved in any of the 16 that where sold incorrectly and we are trying to make it right and loosing our butts at the same time doing it but we thought that was good business then we have people like isreal that are never going to be happy, offering a full refund was not good enough for him and them $160 worth of mags is not good enough for him either after he has already received them, well that should tell you something!-Ray-Owner-
 
#23 · (Edited)
This is BlackMarketArms, .....well as everyone that ever received one was offered a full refund plus shipping back to us plus any transfer fees that they paid!!!!!!......we offered a full refund as stated or $100 back in cash, or 3-20 round mags, -Ray-Owner-
Not true! You have made NO effort to contact me or offer me anything. You knew a long time ago you sold me the wrong gun. I found that out 2 days ago. You may have made some kind of offer to those who complained but "everyone that ever received one" is not even close to a true statement. You are not going to make a bad situation any better by coming on here and making untrue statements.

Fact is when you make one statement I know to be completely untrue, as you say: "well that should tell you something!"... and it does.

The balls in your court Ray. You have access to my email address from the auction .... My inbox awaits.... I'm guessing Is14jay is waiting as well.
 
#26 ·
I am embarrassed that I didn't notice I got the light version. It went straight into my safe until a few weeks ago when I put the scope on it, then back into safe until I get some range time. It was a spur of the moment purchase because it was a heavy barrel for 969.00. Had it been the light version, I wouldn't have bought it. I have an email into them as well, and feel we will get this resolved. I am going to call FN and ask a few questions regarding the versions. If there were any heavy barrels available I would expect it to be replaced with one, since that's what I paid for.

Jay
 
#29 · (Edited)
Feel free to contact us if you are unhappy. We have no way of knowing what customers are unhappy if they do not contact us. We WILL make every attempt to make unhappy customers satisfied if they contact us and give us an opportunity to correct any mistakes. We are honest sellers, check out our Gunbroker feedback as proof. We NEVER intend to sell items with inaccurate descriptions. At the end of the day, most of our customers are happy with the light barrel as they still received a "HELL OF A DEAL".
 
#31 · (Edited)
Response to israel66's ridiculous accusations

Israel66 purchased this firearm from us on Gunbroker.com. We had the light contour barreled FNARs unintentionally listed as Heavy Barreled. FN switched the rifles they were shipping to us without notification and we had already sold some before it was brought to our attention. As soon as we realized the mistake, we immediately changed the listing description and made attempts to make the customers who had received the incorrect rifle and contacted us, happy.

Israel66 was one of the customers who won a Gunbroker auction with the incorrect description. This was not realized until he was shipped the firearm and he contacted us. We had some new people working in the shipping department and he was sent a rifle which had been returned by another customer (for a full refund). Israel66 did not tell us that he received another customer's information or rifle until after he contacted us and we had communicated several times, and had made arrangements to satisfy him. We find that the fact that he hid the detail that he had another customer's information...disturbing. We agree that shipping him a rifle with another customer's information in it is inappropriate, but it is also wrong to keep this fact a secret until he became unhappy. The employee who made the mistake of shipping out the rifle with another customer's information in it has been fired since this incident.

We offered Israel66 to return the firearm at our expense and we would send him a full refund including shipping and his transfer fees (assuming the firearm was still in new, unfired condition). He was okay with that at first but then contacted us again to tell us that he wouldn't return the firearm because he felt it was not in "new" condition and he was afraid that we wouldn't give him his full refund. Israel66 DID NOT TELL US AT THIS TIME that he had received a firearm that had been shipped to someone else previously. If he had mentioned that, we would have had NO PROBLEM giving him a full refund even if the gun was in poor condition. Instead, Israel66 accepted an offer of 3 extra 20 round magazines which we sell in our storefront for $54 each.

Israel66 then proceeded to harass us until we told him to stop contacting us as he was wasting our time and money since there was nothing we could do to make him happy. We are honest sellers and this was an honest mistake. You can view our feedback on Gunbroker.com to see that this incident is isolated and will not be repeated.

We feel that we made every attempt to resolve this situation in a fair and appropriate manner and it is Israel66 who is being difficult. We feel that this customer is one of the few that will never be happy no matter what attempts are made. We have tried our best and it wasn't good enough for him.

Again, we admit that we made a mistake in the listing description of these auctions, but we have since corrected it and the mistake will NOT be repeated. We have made every attempt to make this customer happy and to no avail.
 
#36 ·
The employee who made the mistake of shipping out the rifle with another customer's information in it has been fired since this incident.
Not fired just because of this mistake, correct? Hope not. Because if you fire an employee from one mistake then someone may say you would have to fire yourself as well, being as you have ultimate oversight of all business transactions. ;)
 
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