"Knockdown Power" Discussion

[s4mur41h4x0r]

Not to be morbid or anything....but, I am just gonna ask it....StrikeHold504th, if you do have to use your weapon let us know what kind of knockdown power it provides for self defense...what round are you going to carry?

Edit to add by s4mur41h4x0r, this was pulled from another thread and the discussion went much further than my question...I didn't start this thread...nor do I feel like discussing it any further.

[F1V3-53V3N]

knockdown power

That phrase is a misnomer when applied to pistols.

With no shot to the CNS, nobody is going to get "knocked down" unless they choose to be "knocked down" out of a lack of motivation to continue the fight.


Now this is something that would have "knock down" power..

Carl+Gustav+01.jpg

Carl Gustav - 84 mm man-portable reusable recoilless rifle.

[s4mur41h4x0r]

That phrase is a misnomer when applied to pistols.

With no shot to the CNS, nobody is going to get "knocked down" unless they choose to be "knocked down" out of a lack of motivation to continue the fight.


Now this is something that would have "knock down" power..

Attachment 488

Carl Gustav - 84 mm man-portable reusable recoilless rifle.

Yeah, you took that a little to literal...

"Knockdown power" was the nice way of me saying "how efficiently did it kill the person?"

[F1V3-53V3N]

Yeah, you took that a little to literal...

"Knockdown power" was the nice way of me saying "how efficiently did it kill the person?"

It is a very accurate gun with very little recoil and holds 21 rounds from the factory. Since it only takes one well placed bullet to stop a human, I would say the gun can be very efficient. As long as a handgun has sufficient penetration to damage the CNS, it can do it's job. Whether or not someone dies depends upon the time elapsed until medical attention is received as stated by the foremost forensics expert on bullet wounds. The size of the hole or amount of non-vital tissue damaged (within reason see: Gustav) is not going to affect the fight in the short term. You gotta hit the CNS or the attacker has to give up, it's as simple as that.

[s4mur41h4x0r]

It is a very accurate gun with very little recoil and holds 21 rounds from the factory. Since it only takes one well placed bullet to stop a human, I would say the gun can be very efficient. As long as a handgun has sufficient penetration to damage the CNS, it can do it's job. Whether or not someone dies depends upon the time elapsed until medical attention is received as stated by the foremost forensics expert on bullet wounds. The size of the hole or amount of non-vital tissue damaged (within reason see: Gustav) is not going to affect the fight in the short term. You gotta hit the CNS or the attacker has to give up, it's as simple as that.

You talk like I haven't owned my FsN for the past 2+ years...

I know it only takes 1 shot, however even you said "I would say" and "can be", so you yourself don't know either. Thus my question still holds merit, that you can't answer to.

[F1V3-53V3N]

You talk like I haven't owned my FsN for the past 2+ years...

I know it only takes 1 shot, however even you said "I would say" and "can be", so you yourself don't know either. Thus my question still holds merit, that you can't answer to.

I don't mean to sound condescending, part of the reasoning for my efforts in hammering the mantra of "shot placement is everything" is to keep myself focused as well. It's so easy to allow oneself to slip back into thinking about caliber and or ammo brands as a factor in "stopping/knockdown power", but those terms were created by ammo manufacturers to sell their "magic" bullets. Those terms have no reality in science. It comes down to shot placement and shot placement alone in stopping a threat. Death has to do with how fast someone receives medical attention and how critical the area that has been shot.

With that being said, penetration is the primary factor to be considered when choosing a handgun round. I choose S4M because it penetrates hard barriers superbly as well as imparts severe shock at the "perfect" depths in simulant. Plus, I think it's a magic bullet....


Okay, back on topic.. patiently waiting for StrikeHold to make Five-seveN history!

[HK SD9 Tactical]

... or ammo brands as a factor in "stopping/knockdown power", but those terms were created by ammo manufacturers to sell their "magic" bullets. Those terms have no reality in science. It comes down to shot placement and shot placement alone in stopping a threat. ...

It is Hollywood that perpetuates this misnomer...After all, they have to bring it down to the uneducated level to sell their wares....

A very good article read:


P1 Exclusive: The truth about handgun knockdown power
By Commander Jeffry L. Johnson
Long Beach Police Dept., Detective Division
Special contributor to PoliceOne

There is undoubtedly no other myth more perpetuated and closely held (even now) by many law enforcement professionals than what I have previously referred to as the “Demonstrative Bullet Fallacy,” or in plainer terms, the idea that any handgun of any caliber has “knockdown power,” in that the sheer size and force of the bullet can knock a person down. Closely related is the myth that bullet size — rather than shot placement — can determine or ensure a “one shot stop.” Both are inaccurate, unscientific, and dangerous, and have no place in the training of law enforcement professionals.
Not that any of this is new information. This fact has been generally known for about six hundred years or so. Notable intellects such as DaVinci, Galileo, Newton, Francis Bacon, and Leonard Euler all studied physics and ballistics, as did many others. It was Newton’s research that led Benjamin Robbins to invent the ballistic pendulum in 1740 (the first device to measure bullet velocity).

There is no mystery here — the truth has been documented time and again. So how is it that we still don’t get it? One word: Hollywood.

Ever since Dirty Harry came along with his .44 Magnum hand-cannon, when someone gets shot in the movies or on TV (and don’t forget video games) two things happen: 1) the victim is thrown back convulsively, through windows, off balconies, etc. and 2) there will immediately emerge a geyser of blood spewing forth from the wound, leaving no doubt that this person has been shot, and pinpointing exactly where the bullet has struck.
Many firearm and shooting magazines picked up on the idea as well, discussing and propagating the pseudo-scientific idea of handgun “knockdown power” and “one shot stopping power.”

The Truth

The Federal Bureau of Investigation Firearms Training Unit published a concise yet insightful report that speaks directly to this issue of firearm wounding ballistics and the misconceptions that have surrounded this area.
These so called [knockdown power] studies are further promoted as being somehow better and more valid than the work being done by trained researchers, surgeons and forensic labs. They disparage laboratory stuff, claiming that the “street” is the real laboratory and their collection of results from the street is the real measure of caliber effectiveness, as interpreted by them, of course. Yet their data from the street is collected haphazardly, lacking scientific method and controls, with no noticeable attempt to verify the less than reliable accounts of the participants with actual investigative or forensic reports. Cases are subjectively selected (how many are not included because they do not fit the assumptions made?). The numbers of cases cited are statistically meaningless, and the underlying assumptions upon which the collection of information and its interpretation are based are themselves based on myths such as knockdown power, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, or the temporary cavity methodology of flawed work such as RII. (1)

The truth is, the whole idea of handgun knockdown power is a myth. It simply doesn’t work that way. The FBI report further clarifies:
A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball. Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously. (2)

The report cites previous studies that have calculated bullet velocities and impact power, concluding that the “stopping power” of a 9mm bullet at muzzle velocity is equal to a one-pound weight being dropped from the height of six feet. A .45 ACP (45 auto) bullet impact would equal that same object dropped from 11.4 feet. That is a far cry from what Hollywood would have us believe, and actually flies in the face of what even many in law enforcement have come to mistakenly believe.

The FBI report also emphasizes that unless the bullet destroys or damages the central nervous system (i.e., brain or upper spinal cord), incapacitation of the subject can take a long time, seemingly longer if one is engaged in a firefight.

Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso, causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. (3)
More often than not, an officer firing at a suspect will not immediately know if he or she has even struck the target. The physics are such that the body will rarely involuntarily move or jerk, and usually there is no noticeable spewing of blood or surface tearing of tissue. Often there is no blood whatsoever. (4) That is why military surgeons and emergency room physicians take great time and pains to carefully examine gunshot victims for any additional small holes. Often that is the only indication the person has been shot.

Personal Experience

But let’s be real here. I can cite numerous additional academic and scientific sources that support this article, but I know how cops think. We’re not always the most trustful of academics, especially when it comes to our street survival. So let me add my own personal experience to the data. Please allow me to go beyond the cold facts and share with you why I know what I’m telling you is the truth.

In the mid-1980s I was involved in my first shooting as a police officer. But to give the story context, I must go back to 1982 when I graduated from the Long Beach Police Academy. The first thing I was told by experienced training officers I trusted and looked up to, was to “get rid of that pea-shooter 38 they issued you and buy a real gun with some knockdown power!” Although we were issued .38 caliber revolvers, we were authorized to carry a number of different caliber weapons on duty, the largest of which was the 45 Long Colt.
The .45 Long Colt round next to the diminutive 9 millimeter.
Imagine my surprise when I was confronted by a suspect armed with a shotgun in a dark alley and my Long Colt didn’t live up to its billing. I fired five rounds at the suspect. It wasn’t until I fired my last shot — intentionally aimed at his head — that he went down. I can’t begin to relate to you the surprise and horror I felt when there was absolutely no outward indication I was hitting my target. It was the kind of situation cops have nightmares about.
What actually happened? I fired five rounds at a distance of about twelve feet. The first one missed completely. The second struck his upper leg and broke his femur. The third struck him in the shoulder/chest. The fourth round hit him dead center—in the heart. And of course, the fifth was a headshot. Three of the five rounds created fatal wounds, though only one had immediate results.

Needless to say, I was pretty shaken by the whole thing. Not by the morality of what I’d done; the suspect had already fired at a bystander and taken a hostage earlier. He was also high on PCP. That wasn’t my inner struggle. What shook me was how unprepared I felt; how totally off guard I was taken by what occurred. No one ever told me it would be like that. The reality was contrary to everything I thought I knew about deadly force.
That experience more than any research or study is the reason is why I am writing this article. Police officers risk getting into shootings every day; we need to know the dynamics of how a shooting incident may unfold. It will affect our equipment, tactics, and most important, our mindset. We need to know that rarely will one shot incapacitate an assailant. We further need to be able to explain this when our fellow officers are involved in shootings where multiple shots are fired. The public honestly believes it’s like the movies. Why would we ever need to fire twenty or thirty rounds to subdue an armed suspect? Problem is we can’t teach it or explain it until we understand it ourselves. (5)

Footnotes:
1. Patrick, Urey W., Federal Bureau of Investigation, Firearms Training Unit, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,” p.13. (1989).
2. Ibid., p.9.
3. Ibid., p. 8.
4. Newgard, Ken, MD, “The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation” (1992).
5. For you visual learners still unconvinced, I highly recommend viewing the Discovery Channel MythBusters segment, “Blown Away,” (Brown Note Episode, Second Season), where the knockdown power myth is visually and scientifically debunked once and for all.

[F1V3-53V3N]

Perhaps we can split this off-topic discussion into a new thread and then go nuts. I have plenty to add but will withhold as the original topic on this thread is very important to me.

[s4mur41h4x0r]

Perhaps we can split this off-topic discussion into a new thread and then go nuts. I have plenty to add but will withhold as the original topic on this thread is very important to me.

I have nothing more to say, so unless you are talking with others, there is no point.

[HK SD9 Tactical]

Thread split and relevant discussion move to "Tactics Corner".