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I have an unusual�okay, weird�question...

10K views 48 replies 11 participants last post by  An Angry Hamster 
#1 ·
I have an unusual—okay, weird—question...

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and thinking about buying an FNS 9c. All of my carry guns up to now have been safetyless (M&P40c, Glock 19, PPS, XDs9, M&P Shield, and Glock 26). I haven't made up my mind, but I MIGHT go with a safety because I still get a little excited holstering my weapon appendix style next to my junk. I figured if the safety on the FNS is passive enough, I may use it to holster the weapon–and as soon as it's secure–turn the safety off so I don't have to worry about it not going bang.

I also hate loaded chamber indicators because I think they're not safe, especially across platforms.

With that said, what's the best way to remove the red paint off both the loaded chamber indicator (gun metal) and the safeties (polymer)?

I'm interested to know people's thoughts about safeties, loaded chamber indicators, and FNS firearms in general as well.

Thanks,
Sheepdogged
 
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#2 ·
I hate FN pistol safeties. They stick out too far and rip up my hand when I shoot especially on smaller pistols. If you have gone safetyless up to this point then why would you stop now? I am not sure why you dislike chamber indicators. Perhaps you could elaborate on that? Welcome to the forum :biggrin:
 
#7 ·
If you have gone safetyless up to this point then why would you stop now? I am not sure why you dislike chamber indicators. Perhaps you could elaborate on that? Welcome to the forum :biggrin:
Like I mentioned, I'm now open to the idea of using a safety to HOLSTER my weapon when carrying it appendix style. As soon as it was in its holster, I would turn the safety off. I've just seen too many examples of people shooting themselves. Yes, people do shoot their penises and testicals off and put rounds in their leg every year. It's rare, but it happens.

Loaded chamber indicators are dangerous. People get hurt when they're sure their guns are not loaded. Lighting can be a cause to have a false negative, flags have failed to go down giving a false positive, you may not be thinking clearly and switched from one gun to another, paint can rub off... there are many good reasons to assume every gun is always loaded.
 
#3 ·
Kam, the FNS safeties don't stick out much at all (not even noticeable to me).

As to the chamber loaded indicator, I don't pay any attention to them. My guns have either lost the red paint, or I can't see it.

CLP might take it off.
 
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#4 ·
Ah foot in mouth. I was referring to the FNX line. I will have to play with an FNS when I get back. I am already heavily invested in the XD series.
 
#6 ·
I carry holstered whenever I can, but sometimes out of convenience around the house I appendix carry with a clip. My personal rule is that I never carry with a round in the chamber unless I'm using some kind of holster that covers the trigger guard. I'm curious about your feelings about the LCI though as I've never felt strongly either way and just ignore them. I don't think they are a solution to anything (my loaded chamber indicator is inspecting the chamber myself), but by the same token don't introduce any problems either.
 
#10 ·
As far as the loaded chamber indicator on any gun goes, if you trust it absolutely, perhaps you deserve to wing yourself.

Rule #1: Treat every firearm as if it were loaded at all times.
Rule #2: Always know the status of your firearm (See Also: Rule #1.)
Rule #3: If unsure of the status of your firearm, press-check your firearm to inspect the chamber with Mark 1s (See Also: Rule #1.)

That said, don't attempt to modify the loaded chamber indicator on the FNS series; it's actually part of the extractor, and the baby bunnies might cry if you do.
 
#11 ·
The LCI is a novelty at best. It's of the utmost importance to know the status of your weapon (be it carry gun or not) at all times. That being said I can't really get down with appendix carry. Too many goodies in front of the pipe to have to worry about under duress. I carry with one in the chamber because I don't want fumble fart around cocking a slide if someone is shooting at/trying to stab/beat/burn/or otherwise damage my body.
 
#12 ·
I can't really get down with appendix carry. Too many goodies in front of the pipe to have to worry about under duress. I carry with one in the chamber because I don't want fumble fart around cocking a slide if someone is shooting at/trying to stab/beat/burn/or otherwise damage my body.
I like appendix, but I always have the trigger covered when I do, but it's getting it into the holster that I worry about. That's why I'm rethinking of my decade of carrying a weapon without a safety. Click it safe, holster it, make it hot, you're good to go. I really don't see a downside other than we've all be brainwashed by Glock for thirty years. It's like we went from 1911 to Glock without thinking of an intermediate step that could avoid Glock leg.
 
#13 ·
On appendix carry, getting it out of the holster should concern you just as much as getting it in. More people wing themselves drawing than holstering (especially under stressful conditions.) I would ensure my manual of arms were changed so the safety is always on while holstered. Disengaging the safety on the FNS takes no time, and it's another layer of protection between a very unforgiving piece of lead and your extremely forgiving package.
 
#15 ·
On appendix carry, getting it out of the holster should concern you just as much as getting it in. More people wing themselves drawing than holstering (especially under stressful conditions.)
From what I've read, I have serious doubts about your claim. If you isolate people in shootings who draw their weapons and accidently discharge their weapons before they clear themselves, that MIGHT be true, but when you consider all 65,000 injuries from firearms each year—including holstering each day in non-stressful situation—my guess is that the opposite is true. Our information in this area is limited, however, so if you know of any studies that shed direct light on this, I'd be interested to see them. Search the internet, however, and you can find plenty of situations where people shoot themselves while holstering. It happens a lot. A safety at least cuts down on holstering accidents.
 
#14 ·
I read somewhere that over 50% of all cops who get shot either shoot themselves (often in the leg or foot while holstering or un-holstering) or in the hand (it gets in the way), or get shot by their partner.

My carry gun is a S&W J frame, in a pocket holster that covers the trigger guard. The 12 lbs trigger is a safety, too. I rarely carry a full-sized pistol but when I do -- in the woods, for example -- I carry it without a round in the chamber. I think the Glock has single-handedly brought the AD (or ND) to many a police department. I don't understand the desire by everyone to lighten the trigger pull on striker-fired weapons, e.g., Apex kits for M&Ps, unless these are to be range guns. I shudder to think of carrying such a gun in an IWB holster. In my erstwhile career, I have personal knowledge of four AD's, all by professionals, one resulting in a death (1 - 1911, 2 - M9, 1 - M11). Safeties are good, although they require training.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I'm interested to know people's thoughts about safeties, loaded chamber indicators, and FNS firearms in general as well.

Thanks,
Sheepdogged
Except for single action only handguns, the purpose of an external safety is to compensate for lack of proper training and regular practice.

When we train and practice we come to realize that safety rules aside, real world safety distills down to three variables: the muzzle's direction, the weapon's loaded status, and your trigger finger.

For example, I carry loaded and chambered AIWB using a quality kydex holster. In doing so I know that the first two of the aforementioned variables increase my risk, which is why I am solely dependent on the trigger finger as my safety. If I make a mistake, there's no fail safe.

Now I've been a serious shooter for 25 years and taken over a 1,000 hours of formal training at the top schools and routinely practice dry and live fire and compete all the time, so I have proven ability to rely on my trigger finger.

Other shooters may not be as confident in which case I would recommend more conventional IWB or even OWB carry until that shooter's skills reach a certain level. This should be achieved without reliance on an external safety.

Regarding the LCI, I have actually converted from using the press check to relying on the LCI because I and others have discovered over time that with enough routine press checks we can damage the cartridge in three ways: a) the primer compound separates from the primer body causing FTF; b) the bullet actually pushes into the case reducing the OAL and increasing pressure; and c) this same bullet pushing into the case can cause slight bulging of the case.

So how do we use the LCI? Well first off like any good Manipulation technique we want to use tactile feel not our eyes, whether to maintain eyes up awareness in the day or just to be able to perform the manipulation in the dark. If flush the chamber is unloaded, if protruding the chamber is loaded.

After removing the ammunition source (magazine) and racking the slide during the unloading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is flush. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always perform a press check since there's presumably no ammunition to damage.

After inserting the ammunition source and racking the slide during the loading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is protruding before performing a reload with retention. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always drop the magazine and look to see if there's one less round (eyes down in daytime) or perform a press check (dark).

Hope this gives you some thoughts to consider.
 
#17 ·
FYI on the LCI,

A Loaded Chamber Indicator that is integral with the extractor is there primarily so good guys engaging bad guys in low light / no light operations are able to determine without doubt their sidearm is loaded in a tactile fashion. For those that think an LCI is a novelty or serves no purpose should research where they'll likely discover the LCI has been a long time request of those WHO DO engage bad guys in low/no light scenarios. Having been in those situations while using a sidearm I cannot begin to tell you just how many times you will rub your finger along the side of the slide and feeling that insignificant, serving no purpose, novelty of a protruding bump such a little bump distills in its holder a tremendous amount of confidence that you ARE loaded. Also, whilst engaged in two-way endeavors you CANNOT always rely on the slide locking backing indicating you're out of ammo, another reason for the LCI. It should also be noted, ALL combat handguns currently designed have some sort of LCI mostly those that are integral to the extractor, so one must ask, are all firearms manufactures morons or are they responding to those that might ACTUALLY use a sidearm in combat?
 
#19 ·
FYI on the LCI,

A Loaded Chamber Indicator that is integral with the extractor is there primarily so good guys engaging bad guys in low light / no light operations are able to determine without doubt their sidearm is loaded in a tactile fashion. For those that think an LCI is a novelty or serves no purpose should research where they'll likely discover the LCI has been a long time request of those WHO DO engage bad guys in low/no light scenarios.
Don't kill the messenger, but James Yeager addresses exactly what you're saying in a video and he says you guys need to train more to make sure you know the condition of your gun, and that if on rare occasions you're not sure, he says it's better to cycle a round and let the bullet fly and that losing a round won't matter in the scheme of things. That's probably not the best idea in my opinion if you're carrying a Glock 43, for example, but for any gun with 10, 12, or more rounds that's probably true.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Ok Bluemonday I have read over all of your comments and I have decided to respond to all of your comments in a single response. So that there is absolutely no chance of not knowing what I am referring to in your various comments, I will post your comment, followed by my response to each.

Please take some guydol before reading any further, you're going to need it....

------------

Your comment: Except for single action only handguns, the purpose of an external safety is to compensate for lack of proper training and regular practice.

My response: You couldn't me more wrong if you had just come out and told everyone that the world in fact was as flat as the people in the 14th Century thought it was. A safety was incorporated in every weapon, civilian and military, to add a layer of protection against accidental and possibly fatal accidental discharges. Safeties on firearms started becoming commonplace in the late 1960's to help curb the problem of accidental discharges due to the high number of people being hurt. The purpose of an external safety has never been to compensate for lack of proper training or regular practice. The only thing that can compensate for lack of training and regular practice is.....wait for it......Proper Training AND Regular Practice. Whoever gave you this idea should have their head examined and should seek medical help for the head-in-rectum syndrome.

Your comment: For example, I carry loaded and chambered AIWB using a quality kydex holster. In doing so I know that the first two of the aforementioned variables increase my risk, which is why I am solely dependent on the trigger finger as my safety. If I make a mistake, there's no fail safe.

My response: Why even make this comment? Unless you're comment is meant to get people slobbering over you AIWB or kydex holster. Or maybe we are supposed to be in awe you actually carry your AIWB loaded and chambered? Chambered, that is funny what did you do grab a copy of the Gun Buzz Words Dictionary and go crazy with it?

You comment: Now I've been a serious shooter for 25 years and taken over a 1,000 hours of formal training at the top schools and routinely practice dry and live fire and compete all the time, so I have proven ability to rely on my trigger finger. Other shooters may not be as confident in which case I would recommend more conventional IWB or even OWB carry until that shooter's skills reach a certain level. This should be achieved without reliance on an external safety.

My response: You've been a serious shooter for 25 years? Really a whole 25 years with no breaks or time off? And you have over 1,000 hours of training at the top schools? Please sign me up for a Bluemonday Decoder Ring because you just became my newest and bestest hero. So tell me, did those top schools you describe include Harmony Church, New Hollywood, Parris Island, or some of the Navy or Chair Force schools? No? I didn't think so, because most military folks don't try to put themselves on a throne for everyone to kneel down in awe in front of. Most folks I know don't brag or try to make other folks feel as though they do not have a big enough unit between their legs so they are lacking. These civilian schools you think are TOP are probably bottom feeders that couldn't make it in military and started a training school for the mentally challenged civilians to pay a bunch of money for, only to get taught a moderate skill set bordering on incompetence. The problem with civilian schools, as they like to be called, is they teach just enough to make the average civilian think they are competent to handle a shoot out with every Hollywood bad guy to come on the silver screen.

And if you or anyone else has taken over 1,000 hours of training at these schools, might I suggest you giving up firearms and going back to utilizing a Red Rider? No one on this planet needs 1,000 or more hours of training on any non-crew served weapons platform(see I can use those big buzz words too). Having a need to have that many training hours means you are not grasping the fundamentals and are more than likely a danger with any firearm and should therefore not handle them, in my opinion. Now to have over 1,000 hours practicing at the range with weapons is an entirely different situation. But if you were bragging about having over 1,000 hours of practice, good for you. I had what seemed like that in Basic, even though we didn't and more than that with my unit in Germany when we went to Wild Chicken and had to fire a whole warehouse full of Vietnam-era ammo.

You also mentioned shooters being as confident as you. What are you a member of EGO-R-US? And how does confidence play a part in how you carry a concealed weapon? How it is carried is about comfort, ease of concealment, and ease of deployment. A persons skills have nothing to do with how they carry their weapons and for you to try and say it does shows you're lack of common sense. Where do you come up with this stuff? The term narcistic isn't even coming close to describing your comments. You need to get over yourself, you really do.

Your comment: Regarding the LCI, I have actually converted from using the press check to relying on the LCI because I and others have discovered over time that with enough routine press checks we can damage the cartridge in three ways: a) the primer compound separates from the primer body causing FTF; b) the bullet actually pushes into the case reducing the OAL and increasing pressure; and c) this same bullet pushing into the case can cause slight bulging of the case.

So how do we use the LCI? Well first off like any good Manipulation technique we want to use tactile feel not our eyes, whether to maintain eyes up awareness in the day or just to be able to perform the manipulation in the dark. If flush the chamber is unloaded, if protruding the chamber is loaded.

After removing the ammunition source (magazine) and racking the slide during the unloading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is flush. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always perform a press check since there's presumably no ammunition to damage.

After inserting the ammunition source and racking the slide during the loading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is protruding before performing a reload with retention. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always drop the magazine and look to see if there's one less round (eyes down in daytime) or perform a press check (dark).

My response: Doing a press check that might hurt the cartridge? What are you using to check with, a sledge hammer? Let's put this another way, if you are using ammunition that is so cheaply made that you have to worry about harming the round by using your finger to press check, you sir have larger problems to worry about. Also, I doubt we really need you to give us a play by play of what happens when you push the trigger. Another attempt to make people feel stupid or just make yourself feel superior to others?

Your comment: Hope this gives you some thoughts to consider.

My response: Oh that line of comments does me allot of things to consider. First thing is how many of you type of folks there are in this world. People like you who think they are to be stood before in awe of their prowess and expertise. Based on what I have read and commented on so far, my D.I's would have chewed you up and spit you out. For that matter, Strong would have probably had you in tears. People that are smug and egotistic like yourself tend to alienate more people than they help. You obviously sound like a book smart person, not a street smart or people person. You also sound as though you might have held on to some apron strings a little to long. But let's move on shall we, you have so many more comments I need to respond to.

Your comment: Perhaps I'm being dense, but I'm totally not following what he is saying here. Why would one lose a round (and create a sound signature which might not be good in certain situations) when we have the LCI and if all else fails the press check?

My response: Please never start off a comment on here with the words "Perhaps I am dense", because people like me will grab that and run around the world with it. And Sound Signature? OMG you are asking for it with all of these buzz words.

Your comment: This is how I understood it, and this is why I can't see where this makes any sense especially given LCI and press check options. Why lose a round and telegraph your position with noise?

Moreover, if we did indeed follow his advice don't we still have to check the LCI or perform a press check anyways to verify the racking successfully loaded a round in the chamber? So I'm not sure what his point really is.

My response: My little brother is right Blue, you are way past over-analyzing this thing. First off, in a combat situation, which any self defense situation is combat. If you have to check to see if you have a round in the chamber before engaging your target, you are doing it wrong and are probably about to be dead, so what's the point of checking to see if it is chambered? Anyone carrying an unloaded or un-chambered weapon is the reason the gene pool is in danger of becoming a sewer today. Only people wishing to visit the land of the recently deceased should carry an unloaded or un-chambered weapon.

In a life or death situation, you do not have time to load or chamber a round, you barely have time to take the weapon off of safe. Ask any combat vet how many folks in their units went on patrol with an unloaded or un-chambered weapon. The comments and looks you will get will be priceless I promise. On that note, I promise you that a good 90% or higher have their weapons on safe to prevent accidental discharges. And I once again promise you that those vets have 100 times the training your 'top schools' have given you and they use safeties. Your point is not completely invalid.

Your comment: One more time: racking the slide to cycle a round does not solve the issue at hand, that the user is unsure if there's a round in the chamber.

Manipulation 101: you still need to perform some sort of verification after racking the slide during the loading and unloading process: LCI, press check, drop the mag to see if there's one less cartridge, etc.

The whole point is that racking the slide to ensure a round is chambered does not solve the problem and in fact costs you a round in the process.

My response: For the love of God and country, please explain to me how in the hell you can possibly cycle a weapon with a loaded mag in it and not have a round in the chamber(providing the weapon is undamaged and properly maintained)? First off if the weapon has been properly maintained, is undamaged AND has a loaded mag in it, you will have a round in the chamber after cycling it. If you don't, please stand up and just let the enemy shoot you, they have earned the right at that point.

Back to my original stance, if you have to check to see if you're weapon has one in the chamber, you are doing it wrong and should not carry one.

----

I choose not to respond to you're last couple of comment since my little brother did. You should work on your consistency in your opinions and comments. You have bounced around a bit on your comments. Also, please get away from whoever it is that has been 'teaching' you all of these years and find some military folks who actually can teach you a few things. Civilians, well they are civilians that wouldn't know shiite from shinola. I am really trying not to be a condescending prick here, but you asked for it by your know-it-all and better-than-thou attitude. I would recommend you speaking to some military folks on proper weapons handling and not rely on some bs you have read on the internet or watch on some dumb-as-hell youtube video by folks I wouldn't trust with a super soaker.

Anyway that's my two and a half cents worth.

P.S. - My wife says to tell you thanx for making her laugh with your comments and opinions. She really enjoyed it.
 
#30 ·
Ok Bluemonday I have read over all of your comments and I have decided to respond to all of your comments in a single response. So that there is absolutely no chance of not knowing what I am referring to in your various comments, I will post your comment, followed by my response to each.

Please take some guydol before reading any further, you're going to need it....

Your comment: Except for single action only handguns, the purpose of an external safety is to compensate for lack of proper training and regular practice.

My response: You couldn't me more wrong if you had just come out and told everyone that the world in fact was as flat as the people in the 14th Century thought it was. A safety was incorporated in every weapon, civilian and military, to add a layer of protection against accidental and possibly fatal accidental discharges. Safeties on firearms started becoming commonplace in the late 1960's to help curb the problem of accidental discharges due to the high number of people being hurt. The purpose of an external safety has never been to compensate for lack of proper training or regular practice. The only thing that can compensate for lack of training and regular practice is.....wait for it......Proper Training AND Regular Practice. Whoever gave you this idea should have their head examined and should seek medical help for the head-in-rectum syndrome.
There is no such thing as a "fatal accidental discharge". What you are trying to speak of is a "negligent discharge" compounded by failure to point the muzzle in a safe direction resulting in a fatality (or serious injury).

This has nothing to do with external safety levers and everything to do with inadequate training and practice.

Your comment: For example, I carry loaded and chambered AIWB using a quality kydex holster. In doing so I know that the first two of the aforementioned variables increase my risk, which is why I am solely dependent on the trigger finger as my safety. If I make a mistake, there's no fail safe.

My response: Why even make this comment? Unless you're comment is meant to get people slobbering over you AIWB or kydex holster. Or maybe we are supposed to be in awe you actually carry your AIWB loaded and chambered? Chambered, that is funny what did you do grab a copy of the Gun Buzz Words Dictionary and go crazy with it?
A gun is either unloaded, loaded, or loaded and chambered. The point I made about AIWB carry had to do with illustrating the 3 variables of safety you neglected to quote.

You comment: Now I've been a serious shooter for 25 years and taken over a 1,000 hours of formal training at the top schools and routinely practice dry and live fire and compete all the time, so I have proven ability to rely on my trigger finger. Other shooters may not be as confident in which case I would recommend more conventional IWB or even OWB carry until that shooter's skills reach a certain level. This should be achieved without reliance on an external safety.

My response: You've been a serious shooter for 25 years? Really a whole 25 years with no breaks or time off? And you have over 1,000 hours of training at the top schools? Please sign me up for a Bluemonday Decoder Ring because you just became my newest and bestest hero. So tell me, did those top schools you describe include Harmony Church, New Hollywood, Parris Island, or some of the Navy or Chair Force schools? No? I didn't think so, because most military folks don't try to put themselves on a throne for everyone to kneel down in awe in front of. Most folks I know don't brag or try to make other folks feel as though they do not have a big enough unit between their legs so they are lacking. These civilian schools you think are TOP are probably bottom feeders that couldn't make it in military and started a training school for the mentally challenged civilians to pay a bunch of money for, only to get taught a moderate skill set bordering on incompetence. The problem with civilian schools, as they like to be called, is they teach just enough to make the average civilian think they are competent to handle a shoot out with every Hollywood bad guy to come on the silver screen.
I'm sure the folks at Gunsite, Chapman Academy, Blackwater, Mid-South Insititute, Thunder Ranch, LFI, EAG etc etc would be happy to know you consider they couldn't make it in the military.

And if you or anyone else has taken over 1,000 hours of training at these schools, might I suggest you giving up firearms and going back to utilizing a Red Rider? No one on this planet needs 1,000 or more hours of training on any non-crew served weapons platform(see I can use those big buzz words too). Having a need to have that many training hours means you are not grasping the fundamentals and are more than likely a danger with any firearm and should therefore not handle them, in my opinion. Now to have over 1,000 hours practicing at the range with weapons is an entirely different situation. But if you were bragging about having over 1,000 hours of practice, good for you. I had what seemed like that in Basic, even though we didn't and more than that with my unit in Germany when we went to Wild Chicken and had to fire a whole warehouse full of Vietnam-era ammo.

You also mentioned shooters being as confident as you. What are you a member of EGO-R-US? And how does confidence play a part in how you carry a concealed weapon? How it is carried is about comfort, ease of concealment, and ease of deployment. A persons skills have nothing to do with how they carry their weapons and for you to try and say it does shows you're lack of common sense. Where do you come up with this stuff? The term narcistic isn't even coming close to describing your comments. You need to get over yourself, you really do.
The 1,000 hours is not all square range and classroom time. Most of it is just a little more complex. Regardless, since you have a .mil background you should be very familiar with Brilliance in the Basics.

Your comment: Regarding the LCI, I have actually converted from using the press check to relying on the LCI because I and others have discovered over time that with enough routine press checks we can damage the cartridge in three ways: a) the primer compound separates from the primer body causing FTF; b) the bullet actually pushes into the case reducing the OAL and increasing pressure; and c) this same bullet pushing into the case can cause slight bulging of the case.

So how do we use the LCI? Well first off like any good Manipulation technique we want to use tactile feel not our eyes, whether to maintain eyes up awareness in the day or just to be able to perform the manipulation in the dark. If flush the chamber is unloaded, if protruding the chamber is loaded.

After removing the ammunition source (magazine) and racking the slide during the unloading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is flush. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always perform a press check since there's presumably no ammunition to damage.

After inserting the ammunition source and racking the slide during the loading sequence, we feel to make sure the LCI is protruding before performing a reload with retention. If for some reason we must go beyond the LCI then we can always drop the magazine and look to see if there's one less round (eyes down in daytime) or perform a press check (dark).

My response: Doing a press check that might hurt the cartridge? What are you using to check with, a sledge hammer? Let's put this another way, if you are using ammunition that is so cheaply made that you have to worry about harming the round by using your finger to press check, you sir have larger problems to worry about. Also, I doubt we really need you to give us a play by play of what happens when you push the trigger. Another attempt to make people feel stupid or just make yourself feel superior to others?
Federal HST and Hornady Critical Defense is not what most folks would call cheaply made ammo. This is the very ammo where I have personally witnessed FTF and LEO's have documented this. The cause is from press checking as I explained.

Your comment: Hope this gives you some thoughts to consider.

My response: Oh that line of comments does me allot of things to consider. First thing is how many of you type of folks there are in this world. People like you who think they are to be stood before in awe of their prowess and expertise. Based on what I have read and commented on so far, my D.I's would have chewed you up and spit you out. For that matter, Strong would have probably had you in tears. People that are smug and egotistic like yourself tend to alienate more people than they help. You obviously sound like a book smart person, not a street smart or people person. You also sound as though you might have held on to some apron strings a little to long. But let's move on shall we, you have so many more comments I need to respond to.
So now we get to the heart of your editorializing. You took my remarks as being smug and egotistical. Well frankly that interpretation is more of a reflection on you not on me.

Your comment: Perhaps I'm being dense, but I'm totally not following what he is saying here. Why would one lose a round (and create a sound signature which might not be good in certain situations) when we have the LCI and if all else fails the press check?

My response: Please never start off a comment on here with the words "Perhaps I am dense", because people like me will grab that and run around the world with it. And Sound Signature? OMG you are asking for it with all of these buzz words.
Sorry my choice of words upsets you so much.

Your comment: This is how I understood it, and this is why I can't see where this makes any sense especially given LCI and press check options. Why lose a round and telegraph your position with noise?

Moreover, if we did indeed follow his advice don't we still have to check the LCI or perform a press check anyways to verify the racking successfully loaded a round in the chamber? So I'm not sure what his point really is.

My response: My little brother is right Blue, you are way past over-analyzing this thing. First off, in a combat situation, which any self defense situation is combat. If you have to check to see if you have a round in the chamber before engaging your target, you are doing it wrong and are probably about to be dead, so what's the point of checking to see if it is chambered? Anyone carrying an unloaded or un-chambered weapon is the reason the gene pool is in danger of becoming a sewer today. Only people wishing to visit the land of the recently deceased should carry an unloaded or un-chambered weapon.

In a life or death situation, you do not have time to load or chamber a round, you barely have time to take the weapon off of safe. Ask any combat vet how many folks in their units went on patrol with an unloaded or un-chambered weapon. The comments and looks you will get will be priceless I promise. On that note, I promise you that a good 90% or higher have their weapons on safe to prevent accidental discharges. And I once again promise you that those vets have 100 times the training your 'top schools' have given you and they use safeties. Your point is not completely invalid.
I never said one needs to check their chamber before engaging a target.

Regarding the safety again, I specifically prefaced my earlier remark that the context we were talking about was handguns other than single action. So if the handgun is single action or if we're talking about a different weapon system such as a primary weapons system (M4 for example), then the safety should be engaged.


Your comment: One more time: racking the slide to cycle a round does not solve the issue at hand, that the user is unsure if there's a round in the chamber.

Manipulation 101: you still need to perform some sort of verification after racking the slide during the loading and unloading process: LCI, press check, drop the mag to see if there's one less cartridge, etc.

The whole point is that racking the slide to ensure a round is chambered does not solve the problem and in fact costs you a round in the process.

My response: For the love of God and country, please explain to me how in the hell you can possibly cycle a weapon with a loaded mag in it and not have a round in the chamber(providing the weapon is undamaged and properly maintained)? First off if the weapon has been properly maintained, is undamaged AND has a loaded mag in it, you will have a round in the chamber after cycling it. If you don't, please stand up and just let the enemy shoot you, they have earned the right at that point.

Back to my original stance, if you have to check to see if you're weapon has one in the chamber, you are doing it wrong and should not carry one.
I've lost count of folks I have seen who racked a slide and the round never chambered. Why? Because they failed to seat the magazine during the loading process or they short stroked the slide. Happens all the time. Some folks just become complacent. Besides, I'm not sure I see the harm in using the LCI.

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I choose not to respond to you're last couple of comment since my little brother did. You should work on your consistency in your opinions and comments. You have bounced around a bit on your comments. Also, please get away from whoever it is that has been 'teaching' you all of these years and find some military folks who actually can teach you a few things. Civilians, well they are civilians that wouldn't know shiite from shinola. I am really trying not to be a condescending prick here, but you asked for it by your know-it-all and better-than-thou attitude. I would recommend you speaking to some military folks on proper weapons handling and not rely on some bs you have read on the internet or watch on some dumb-as-hell youtube video by folks I wouldn't trust with a super soaker.

Anyway that's my two and a half cents worth.

P.S. - My wife says to tell you thanx for making her laugh with your comments and opinions. She really enjoyed it.
Thank you for not "trying not to be a condescending prick". I really don't care at all what you think, and look forward to the readers making up their own minds after reading our posts. LOL
 
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